Re: What is an assembler?
From: mchiper (notnuts_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 10/11/03
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Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 11:49:24 -0400
In alt.lang.asm, Msg ID: <lhKhb.12431$Eo2.4345@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Ed Beroset <beroset@mindspring.com>, wrote:
>mchiper wrote:
>A clearer way to ask might look like this:
>
>"I was attempting to assemble loader.asm from http://www.beroset.com
>using MASM 2.0 with this command line: MASM /zi loader.asm but I got
>the following errors:
I might have IF that's what I had done FIRST.
I wanted to know what YOU had done wrong.
The site I purported to be helping beginners to learn assembler.
It was FAILING to help me learn anything at all.
This is especially bothersome, to me.
Since, I am not exactly a beginner.
And I can do many things that would give "experts" headaches.
>I have MASM 6.11, too, but I'm not sure of how to use it yet.
>Could someone please point out what I'm doing wrong?"
THAT would be untrue.
I still don't think that I was doing any thing wrong.
>There are a few essential differences which make the second message more
>likely to get you help. First, it clearly states what you're trying to
>do and how you're trying to do it. Second, it is specific in what the
>problem is and includes enough information (like the error messages) for
>someone to actually diagnose the problem. Third, by using words like
>"please" and perhaps admitting that you might not know what you're
>doing, you're more likely to be thought of as a person who really wants
>to learn something rather than as an arrogant jerk.
>A little humility goes a long way!
Dream on, Ed..
See if you can find ONE isstance where it's worked..
For a beginner, that is. :)
P.S. - A beginner doesn't know
1. What he doesn't know.
2. How to ask a question.
An "expert" THINKS he knows what's best for everybody. -:)
(Discalimers to the contrary NOT withstanding.)
>>>>>>I have MASM 6.11, but have yet to figure out what is what.
>>
>> /Zs was all I felt I needed to learn.
Becuz Zs showed me INSTANTLY, that the SOURCE was the problem. :)
>There's more to learning assembly language than just syntax,
Of course, there's grammar too.
And problems/limitations specific to:
The assembler itself, hardware, OS, etc etc..
For instance I find graphical stuff far too much for a beginner.
I very much doubt, I will EVER try to tackle it (head on..:)
BUT, I will find ways tu use what OTHERS have done with it. :)
- I DO NOT intend to "Re invent the wheel"
>if that's what you meant.
No.. Above is an elaborated version of what I meant.
Since I had clearly indicated otherwise, What makes you think it was?
>> I really did completely understand YOUR problem though. :-)
>
>Good. It's a start!
For a beginner, it's more than just a good start, I'd say.
>>>>I've made a few stabs at editing/correcting.
>>
>> I might have continued, BUT it really isn't worth BUYING TASM
>> just to assemble this ONE program is it. -:)
>
>I wouldn't think so, but then again,
>I probably wouldn't just assemble one program with it. :-)
>> I suspected I would have also had to get C or C++ too, wouldn't I ?
>> And so it goes.with "In for a penny, in for a pound" - Why?
>
>I bought a new copy of TASM 5.0 about two years ago for $15 from a local shop.
OK, , I really don't think you're THAT dense. but JIC.
"In fo $15, in for all you've got?"
>I don't know if the full assembler comes with the compiler or not.
Why would the "full" anything ever mean "This is all you will need" ?
Have you ever tried to buy a new car without the "accessories" ?
1. They wont sell it to you.
- But they will Sell it at "dealer cost' + "your cost" of accessories
2. It won't run. (No tires for example.)
- And it costs more to ship a car that can't run.
3. The Minimum profit on "accesories" is 200%
>TASM is dead anyway -- you're probably better off with MASM,
>despite its limitations.
>>>>I don't understand WHY a simple program like this
>>>>contains anything that MASM 2.0 can't handle.
>>
>> I NOW understand that, since STRUtured programming is what
>> I am trying to learn, I'll have to learn to do it on my own.
>
>I don't know why you'd say that.
Because very early on, I learbed two meanings of:
- Structured Programming. -
Programs that have good structures.
Using an Assembler's syntax to create ANY structures at all..
For me, an assembler is a way to avoid peeking and poking.
Otherwise, it's just another HLL...
>Did you look at some of the references on the web page I mentioned earlier?
Some, I suppose.. One step at a time.
>> - In the process, I learned another limitation of the programs
>> I am currently using..
>> A 600K + EXE program, dis-assembles to a 100K asm file. -:)
>> So I must find a smarter dis-assembler (at the very least.)
>> But not until check out ways to break the 600K into smaller pieces.
>> Any suggestions
>> I can always use a hatchet.
>
>Well, a hatchet was going to be my suggestion.
Well, XCUT.COM , is what I have in mind. hatchets are for wood cuts.
>Seriously, disassembling large programs is not a very useful technique for learning.
In one form, or another, at least parts of large program is what it's all about.
>Better is to create small programs.
Been there, done that..
Now I need to learn from the LARGE programs.
Things that use DOS4GW are my end game..
I am not interested in windoz programming AT ALL !!!!
>>> MASM, from my recollection, insists that you use INVOKE and INVOKE, in
>>>turn, requires a PROTO statement, which is somewhat like a function
>>>prototype in C.
>>
>> Thanks, that is worth a look see in the MASM 2.0 manual.
>
>MASM 2.0? My, that's old.
It was free. (I dumped 1.0 - It was free too.)
>If you have a little bit of money to spend,
>you can get a newer version of MASM
>with Kip Irvine's assembly language book.
I'm into the Internet now..
Hey! - This is the 21st Century, isn't it?
>Anyway, I think you said you had MASM 6.11 also -- that's a much
>better version to use. I use MASM 6.14.
That's why I have it, No doubt it is..
No Tech Ref Manual though. (Else I'd dump 2.0 too..:)
>> It's a PROC thingie, I suspect. This may be why I don't have a problem.
>
>No, actually, it was a user problem. Once I changed the rest of the
>syntax to suit MASM, it no longer complained about nested procs.
?? User problem?? - Haven't you learned yet?
The customer is ALWAYS right.
>>>The only other thing I can think of that's particularly going to affect this program
>>>is the way in which we tell the assembler what kind of symbol to use.
>>
>>
>> This is where I quit my editing efforts..
>
>Yes, I understand. The particular program uses rather complex memory
>references which are not intuitively obvious to translate.
>One has to have had some experience with both TASM and MASM.
That is a DUMB thing to require in an assembler tutorial.
>> Just run a "survey".
>> Iinclude this in the descriptions.
>> Version (old) - Requires (The complete list with all the ORs and ANDs)
>> Version (new) - Requires a computer, and ANY program that assembles.
>
>Maybe you didn't read the text on the web site very thoroughly yet.
It has LOTS of text.
If you like, AND say pretty please <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I'll point out the the other things that are mis-leading.
>The key to writing good code is to make it understandable to HUMANS first
>and coincidentally also to computers.
You have your priorites VERY mixed up.
Good code makes computers do what computers do.
And, incidentally, can be read by humans too..
- It isn't an easy thing to do....
>Some of the most useful code on the planet doesn't assemble at all (see Knuth's MIXAL).
If it doesn't assemble, it's USELESS as code.
I'd call it a circle jerk.
-- Ray
- Next message: I.G. Abel: "Re: LOW LEVEL I/O"
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- In reply to: Ed Beroset: "Re: What is an assembler?"
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- Reply: Ed Beroset: "Re: What is an assembler?"
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