Re: RosAsm?[OT#2]

From: Beth (BethStone21_at_hotmail.NOSPICEDHAM.com)
Date: 04/22/04 

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 01:59:07 +0100

The Wannabee wrote:
> skrev Nathan C. Baker:
> > Nope. You'd only store ONE datum -- but it could have an infinite
> > possible
> > valid values.
>
> Yes. But considering that what is a string of bytes ? Its nothing
but a
> huge number. All content on my harddrive, merge the bytes....one
huge
> number...
>
> So if one voltage could map to the number, my whole harddrive could
be
> stored as one voltage.

And, there you have it...you've answered your own question...presuming
you could store things "infinitely" then, theoretically, yes, you
could store an entire hard drive as just _one_ voltage level...that's
the "theory" of it all...in fact, you could - if it's really
"infinite" - have a hard-drive with "infinite" storage capacity...

This is clear nonsense in reality...so, simply, what's the _practical_
reason that you can't do that for real?

Well, you'd have to be able to _measure_ your voltage to infinite
accuracy...and it couldn't be any less than infinite accuracy because
you've got an infinite amount of "states" so if you misread your
voltage level with even the most infinitesimally small "error" in it,
you'll get the wrong "number" and, thus, some _other_ hard drive
contents, not the actual contents you want...

Then, to put this into perspective, though I can't now re-locate the
post where someone had a nice diagram of it all which would be real
nice to make the point, they said "someone seems to believe in perfect
hardware!"...and then pointed out that "zero" is not really zero
voltage in practice but is something like < 1V and "one" isn't really
5V but more like > 4V (can't remember exact values here, so don't bite
my head off...being "illustrative" of the "it's not a point, it's a
range" thing in general...details are surely off with how it really
works :)...

Don't go thinking that your electricity sent to you is "pure" and
"precise" or anything...the quality varies from place to place but it
"fluctates" all over the place...and that "voltage" is just going to
bob up and down all the time...

This stuff doesn't matter with binary computers because they do that
whole "Threshold" thing and "snap" up to one or down to zero...any
"fluctuation" or "interference" or other "error" coming through the
line gets "ironed out" by this "threshold" / "range" thingy...you'd
need one heck of an unusual "fluctuation" to make zero into a one or a
one into a zero...this is, in fact, a potential problem with making
even more "low power" chips that use 3V or 1V or whatever...smaller
the "gap" here, the more chance it'll "invert" accidentally because of
a "fluctuation"...if you like, the smaller you make the voltage range
here, the larger the typical "interference" and "fluctuation" it
suffers gets amplified into causing an error...

But, for your "infinite states" hard drive, this essentially totally
screws it up as an idea...it would have been impossible to have
measured it to "infinite accuracy", anyway...but, top of the list, you
have to _transmit_ the voltage level with _infinite fidelity_
too...the smallest, most infinitesimal "fluctuation" and, darn, can't
get the hard drive data back because we can't discern by how much our
"big number" has been altered by the quite natural and quite "random"
fluctuations, interferences and other bits of "error"...

And to help put "interference" into perspective, this is
electromagnetics here...really big magnets were used to create your
electricity in the first place...it gets effected by that kind of
thing (ordinarily, not in any way you need worry about...especially
with all those laws about how much interference electronic devices are
permitted to give off...but, unfortunately, what you're asking for
demands _infinite fidelity_...it can't be "interfered" with in the
slightest...not even by 0.00000000001% because we need _infinite
precision_ and _infinite measuring accuracy_ here :)...then, consider
that we're constantly sitting in the Earth's own magnetic field and
that monitor is given off interference and so are your speakers (they
are, in fact, nothing but an electromagnet with a paper cone stuck in
front of it ;)...if there's a mobile phone near then, oh boy, give up
immediately...those things, as you might have seen, can make noises
come out of speakers when put near them, screw up TV reception, heats
up your brain by 0.1 to 0.2 degrees and so on...they are transmitters,
after all...and they aren't on constantly either (would waste too much
battery, would create far too much interference, would need permanent
connections to mobile network, etc. :)...so, if you leave your mobile
phone near a speaker - so you can actually _hear_ when it's sending
things - then they send a short message "casually" every once in a
while (I think it's to do with locating the nearest antenna and best
service and such...but I'm no expert so ask someone else about the
details ;)...

In fact, because we need _infinite fidelity_, you even have to
consider that you yourself - as a living being - give off really,
really small "interference" too...biologists, in fact, discovered that
there's a shark that actually has a sense that picks up this
"interference" giving off by living creatures and has an unbelievably
sensitive "nose" for picking this up...so, if anything is trying to
hide under the sands at the bottom of the ocean, the shark literally
uses its "metal detector" nose thingy to "sniff" out the smallest bit
of electromagnetic interference under the sand...when it finds it, it
dives in for the kill and the poor little hiding creature is totally
stunned! "Bloody hell! How did he find me? I was hidden under the sand
and everything!"...ah, it doesn't use its eyes, that's why...standard
electronics equipment is nowhere, nowhere near this sensitive for
something so small as this to factor into anything...BUT, your
"application" here to store an entire "infinite hard drive" in one
voltage level would require such infinite precision that do we even
have to think about possible "interference" from other planets? Other
solar systems? We are, let's remember, talking about _INFINITE_
accuracy...there is no such thing as "too small to be considered" when
you need that precise accuracy...

Which leads onto the fact that, well, the universe isn't actually
analogue, anyway...it just makes the maths easier to treat it that
way...the universe is "digital" because there really is a "smallest
length" / "smallest time" / "small distance" (the "Planck length",
"Planck time" and "Planck distance"...all named after the bloke who
worked this stuff out :)...below this and you're in "the quantum
realm" with the really, really weird laws of quantum
physics...traditional notions of things like "length" stop making
sense in the way we're used to up in the "big world"...so, to cap it
all off, it's absolutely impossible to get what you're asking for,
anyway...

But, of course, you'd point out that, sure, _infinite_ accuracy is
silly...but what about 512-state logic? Yes, possible...but all the
above still kind of applies, just to a lesser degree...we'd need to
split our 5V into 512 states and be precise enough about things to
differentiate these 512 states correctly...and, oh, you remember that
problematic "fluctuation" and "interference"? Still present...but,
more importantly, still at _exactly the same levels_ it was
before...now you seeing where our "oh dear!" is coming from? Splitting
5V into 512 is 0.009765625V per state (that's the "range" of voltage
for each state)...if any fluctuation or interference exceeds that
0.009765625V (actually, it would be -/+ 0.0048828125V from the perfect
"middle point" of each "state" :) then your "56" could turn into a
"57"...your "234" into a "231" (big bit of "interference"
there...mobile phone was sending a text message at the time ;)...

Well, we could reduce the "interference" by wrapping it in better
insulators around the cables and stuff like that (but the more states,
the better you've got to keep "interference" out and that can be a
costly thing to do...also, would you enjoy carrying around a
lead-lined PC case that's 2 inches thick? But, hey, we've _got to_ kee
p that "interference" out! :)...

As for "fluctuations" in your supply from the power station...out of
your hands..._they_ have got to do stuff to improve the
"quality"...and, generally speaking, that'll be costly and complicated
that they'll say "piss off...like it or lump it as it is (unless _you_
are happy to pay for it all)!"...mind you, we already have to step the
voltage down from UK: 240V / US:120V or whatever to a 12V and a 5V
supply...now, we could add stuff onto that part to try to "regulate"
things a bit better (thinking like a programmer because, yeah, I'm NOT
a hardware person at all: Could it be "buffered" up in a capacitor or
something like this and then released as best to exactly 5V as
possible? That is, if it "fluctuates" coming into the machine then the
fluctuations can be "smoothed out" by "buffering" it before use? Ah,
there's probably some "hardware" reason why this is silly or
something...there usually is when I make my little ignorant
suggestions ;)...

Anyway, perhaps you get the picture...at infinity, it's _literally_
impossible...with 5 million states, it's _practically_
impossible...with 500 states, it's going to be really difficult...with
10 states, "tricky" but possible...with 4 states, quite
reasonable...with 2 states - binary - well that's as cheap, reliable,
least complex as we can get...it's a steeply sloping curve on the
grap...the more states you want, the more complicated it's going to
get, the more difficult to achieve it's going to be, etc....but other
than "infinity" (and, for all practical purposes, any "really big
numbers"), it's all theoretically "possible" for sure...

That 4-bit memory stuff? They've obviously worked hard with materials
and technologies and stuff to find a good "trade-off" point where this
makes the most sense...note, though, that 4 isn't particularly pushing
it too far beyond binary...and the application is _storage_, which
does change things a bit in the sense that you just really want to be
able to set it to some value and then it should stay like that unlike
you want it back from memory...memory can quite tolerably be a little
slower than the CPU...that kind of thing...they obviously found a
"middle ground" there between all the various considerations...

Beth :)

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