Re: [OT] Paging Frank K.

From: NoDot (no_dot_at_msn.remove_this.com)
Date: 11/19/04 

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:13:05 -0500

Beth wrote:

[Quite a bit.]

> Basically, solar panels have no moving parts...there is, in fact, very
> little that can go wrong with them...manufacturers happily provide 20-30
> year guarantees on them of faultless operation (and though the guarantee
> only goes that far, the expectation, under non-extreme conditions, would be
> to go on longer than that)...an actual user of solar panel roofing reports
> on his website that his "maintenance" all relates to the wiring and
> batteries and such but nothing to do with PV panel, except when they looked
> a bit dirty - after years of use - pulling out a garden hose to give them a
> quick wash down ("just in case" the dirt was effecting the efficiency by
> blocking out light...didn't mention if he had any actual evidence of this
> or whether it was just something he thought might be a problem so did it
> anyway)...

I suppose that's why you don't place them on the sides of the house as well.

> There isn't really any "maintenance" of the PV panels...they either work or
> they don't...what do those labels always say? Yes, that's it: "No
> user-servicable parts"...if there's no problems in its manufacture, it
> should work for decades...indeed, you can kind of get the drift of this
> from the 30 year guarantees some manufacturers place on them...as in:
> "we're _sure_ it'll work fine for three decades minimum but will probably
> last longer than that"...

Always a good sign. Now if Microsoft would write code in the same way...

> Anyway, yes...with "grid connected", it feeds into the grid so the
> batteries and such don't apply there...you just have a second "meter" to
> measure your "outgoing" as well as your "incoming"...your bill then having
> "credits" as well as "debts" (including the possibility - in good weather
> when you're using next to nothing - that the bill could come back telling
> you _they_ owe _you_ money, not the other way around...I read a website of
> someone with this kind of system talking about how funny it was to see the
> meter running backwards - legitimately - on a warm Summer day ;)...also,
> being "grid connected", then if your use does exceed what your panels have
> generated then you're not "cut off" or "blacked out"...just a case of the
> "extra" coming from the grid, as per usual...yes, unless someone else is
> feeding clean energy into the grid that you're using, this "extra" is
> probably fossil fuel stuff...BUT at least to the tune of what your PV
> panels can generate, that much clean energy was put into the grid and meant
> that much less came from fossil fuels...and, of course, your electricity
> bill is _reduced_ by that amount too...it's a kind of "best of both worlds"
> solution...you're using your PV panels to create "clean energy" and on the
> grid at the same time...in fact, this is good environmentally from the idea
> that, say you went on holiday (US: vacation)...your PV panels are still
> creating energy but, if your system was "stand alone" then that generated
> energy just isn't used...your battery fills up to capacity then the rest
> just gets wasted...connected to the grid then every bit of your "clean
> energy" goes into the grid and contributes that much "clean energy" into
> the grid (cleaning it up a little :), which, of course, is in constant
> use...no "waste" of any of your "clean energy"...if you're not using it,
> then someone else will be (and the grid pays you for that privilege...that
> is, in fact, a better prospect for them too...when you pay for fossil fuel
> energy, they have to go get fossil fuels and feed them into the power
> stations...with your clean energy, you deliver it straight into the grid,
> no cost to them...nothing to mine, nothing to transport, nothing to feed
> into the power stations...it's actually a pretty good prospect in money
> terms for the energy company too :)...

They pay you for cutting down their costs? Are you sure that's right?

(I agree, though, that going on vacation can be good. If the company pay
enoug for the power, then going on vacation may cost nearly _nothing at
all,_ agree? Unfortunately, there is little incentive to fill an empty
building when it generates so much money for such little cost.)

> Problem with "grid connected" is that it isn't self-sufficient (if that's
> the angle you're going for)...that is, if you are thinking like Rene about
> "power and money controlling us as serfs to corporations and governments of
> crime" then, yes, "grid connected" still keeps you partially in the
> old-style system...purely the "environment" and "fossil fuels" issues here,
> the "independence" issue is not accounted for...but that probably explains
> why governments (lobbied by energy producers) and power companies are
> encouraging only this type of system...solar is worrying to them from the
> perspective that people could actually potentially disconnect completely
> from them and get by without owing anyone any "electricity bill" (indeed,
> the only problem there is, of course, getting enough juice from your PV
> panels to meet your needs that you could happily fully disconnect from the
> "grid"...PV panels probably aren't quite up to that standard yet...but the
> trumpetting of "wind farms", "grid connected", "nuclear" and other _large
> scale_ operations, while saying comparatively nothing or even trying to
> downplay the small-scale stuff is obvious when you consider this
> possibility...if it's "big" then only they can do it...and then they can
> _charge_ for it...they are businesses and not charities, after all...not
> surprising they advocate all the things that make them profits but
> mysteriously say nothing or downplay anything that could possibly lead to a
> full "disconnection" and Liberation from owing them anything at all...when
> PV panels or other small-scale technologies get good enough for this to be
> wholly realistic, then, oh boy, they are in trouble when word gets
> out...buy a system, never pay anything to anyone ever again...and systems
> could be automatically built into houses when they are constructed (some
> solar panels are designed to simultaneously act as roofing tiles so that it
> would be a "more expensive roof" but not two payments...and, buying a
> house, you're paying a lot of money anyway...that tiny bit extra when it
> means no more electricity bills, as your house does that for you
> automatically...

Now will the electric companies like that? I think not.

> Anyway, yes, before I started ranting: The PV panels themselves aren't any
> real "maintenance" problem...there's not really anything in them to go
> wrong...keep them clean with a garden hose or something, if they ever get
> dirty, just so that the light is not blocked reaching them...they are
> typically guaranteed 20-30 years minimum...they don't "go wrong" in that
> sense...

Nice to know.

> No, the real problem is "peripherals"...batteries

These are definitly important for any house I live in and can sleep by
my own pattern. I prefer to sleep in the morning and be awake in the
afternoon and through half the night. (2 PM to 2 AM is my preference.)

> After seeing those figures, I did kind of "modify" my argument a little
> that, okay, _some_ people are a looong way off from finding solar "cost
> effective" simply because if that's "average" and not even maximum, then
> some people must be plugging in Stargates in their basements or powering
> lighthouses or something

LOL

> (pardon geeky "Stargate in your basement"
> joke...fans of the show will get the joke, where an "ancient" builds a
> Stargate out of parts from a mail order catalogue and powers it off the
> grid...how Sam Carter is ever going to afford all that on her military
> wage, I don't know...

I think she likely had to pawn the emerald he gave her. :(

Good analogy, though.

> ...when we get back to our
> stellar system and maths class, we'll look at their decimal number system
> and compare it to our binary and hexadecimal systems"...

Just *had* to do that, didn't you. Ever think _why_ we use base ten so
much? Perhaps it's because we all have ten fingers and ten toes.

> Beth :)

To be honest, I think mother nature has more than we think she does. If
we would just look in the right place, we might be able to find
Trillions of Kiloliters of oil waiting to be found. If we look in the
right places, we won't run out for 200 years, which is plenty of time.
(right now...) 

-- 
NoDot
Visit the Website of NoDot:
<www.geocities.com/nodot1989/>

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