Re: [OT] Paging Frank K. (was: ' [OT] Why Bush?')

From: Beth (BethStone21_at_hotmail.NOSPICEDHAM.com)
Date: 11/22/04 

Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:26:39 GMT

Annie wrote:
> Beth wrote:
> > [ ... 1154 lines crap-snipped ... ]
> >
> > As for the rain thing, this is a common misconception that solar
> > panels only work with direct tropical Sun beaming down on them...
> > in truth, solar panels work with _any_ light...
>
> They do, but they DON'T WORK NEARLY AS WELL in anything less than
> bright, direct sunlight.
>
> A solar panel that's rated at 12 volts in full sun might put out
> only 4 to 6 volts on a cloudy, rainy Welsh day.

Or 25% - 50% of full output, to convert your figures into a percentage...

> If you're going to beat the 'solar' drum, Beth, at least GET A CLUE
> first. Gawhh! Hehe!

I did; The point of my post, which I thought was clear, was simply to get
_YOU_ (and others who've been making a similar incorrect "not direct
sunlight = zero output" assertion) to _ADMIT_ that it merely _drops_ in the
amount of energy it can produce...I wanted to correct the wild assertions
and presumptions being thrown around that on a cloudy day, it doesn't
produce anything at all...

I clearly stated that it _wasn't_ as good as direct sunlight (for obvious
reasons: The amount of light itself "landing" on the PV panel is less :)
but that there's an awful lot of sunlight that clouds only reduce its
potency, they don't stop it outright...though, a glance out of the window
on such a cloudy, rainy day tells you that, anyway, because you can still
see things thanks to sunlight and it isn't the pitch black of night...

And those figures _STILL_ add up, Annie, whatever you say...when _someone
else_ (so you can't accuse me of "bias" because I didn't do the
calculating...in fact, trying to _prove me wrong_ was the intention but the
figures didn't quite do it as intended) took all the figures - an estimate
on "roof space", the actual "average sunlight" (which includes cloudy,
rainy days in Wales), the actual "average energy consumption", etc. - and
the estimate only required 20% efficiency to cover all domestic energy
needs in Britain...yes, _ALL_ domestic needs...20% on every roof and it
_COULD_ do it right here and right now...okay, there are caveats (which,
unlike Blair, I'm not going to pretend aren't there ;)...this energy
produced may not be turning up at the right times (indeed, as Frank jokes,
people want lights _at night_, not in the day...you want heating _in
Winter_, not in the height of Summer (and, over here, it never gets warm -
at least not for more than a day or two, maximum - enough to justify
air-conditioning)...so, yes, the power is kind of turning up at the wrong
times ;)...this does require covering as much roof space as possible...it
does require 20% efficiency panels (which are more expensive than lower
rated panels)...

So, as I've also clearly stated before, this is about slowing things down,
reducing the burden, at least having _SOMETHING_ to fall back on when those
30.5 years are up (because, however you condemn this now, you are proposing
nothing useful in its place...well, no, not quite true...Rene is proposing
we day-dream for 30.5 years with fingers crossed...and you are claiming to
be constructing a "perpetual motion device" in your back garden because
this is such a "simple" problem, scientists have just "been silly" for over
the last 60 years in not finding your "obvious" solution of just dangling a
big kite in the air to cure it all...I mean, let's put your criticism of a
50% drop in solar energy because of a cloudy day in perspective that you're
going to solve all the world's energy needs a week next Tuesday by flying a
few kites...indeed, it's worth asking if _YOU_ have a clue about just how
much energy we're talking about here)...

It can't do it all at the moment...but it has the potential to be able to
do so...PV panels are typically less than 20% efficient...say, only 10%
efficient...but there's five, ten times more actual energy there than is
currently being "extracted" by, well, rather _crap_ PV panels...but unlike
Rene's "solution", panels up to, say, 80% efficiency _have been
constructed_ (used on the "solar car" project and so forth)...the problem
there, of course, is that they are really rather highly expensive at the
moment...but, again, demand, investment, R&D, "economies of scale" and such
can all bring that price down...

And this is the point: Solar is _here_, it works and it has the potential
to make a significant impact...domestic use, after all, is the
"biggie"...indeed - to, for the first time, actually use a "greenhouse gas"
argument - domestic energy use contributes much, much more than cars to
environmental issues...indeed, cars - an acknowledged problem - in
comparison to homes are comparatively nothing...just because we don't see
"exhaust" flying out of our houses (well, not unless we're burning a coal
fire or something ;) doesn't mean that they ain't a problem...they are, in
fact, the worst problem by far...that's why it really _DOES_ make a
difference if all homes began to ease or cover their needs with
alternatives...on a low-level, "per home" scale, this is _ALREADY_ "cost
effective" to some...

> So...how soon can we expect to hear that you've installed your
> very own personal solar array? Hmmmm?

Once I can afford it and arrange it...

When are you going to fly your kite to solve all World Energy problems
overnight? Is World Hunger and World Peace what you're going to solve the
next day as an "encore"?

Speaking of which, guess who's Texas ranch uses solar power? Who recycles
all his wastewater? Who owns a ranch that's an environmentalist's dream?
Who owns a ranch with enough self-sufficiency that should things go AWOL,
he'll be happy in relative luxury on his ranch that _DOES_ use solar power
as I propose, _IS_ capable of producing its own food as Rene proposes,
recycles wastewater and other such things that it, in fact, goes _beyond_
the environmentalism any of us "wacko leftists" might have mentioned?

Guess who owns that Texan ranch? Why, the same guy who wants to drill
Alaska...the same guy who avoids the words "global warming" because his
adminstration _refuses_ to acknowledge it's a problem...the same guy who
pulled out of Kyoto...the same guy who - wake up - is happily screwing
everyone else over because he's _secured his own future_ in all the ways
(and many more neither Rene or myself have thought of or mentioned yet)
prescribed...he's built his "ivory tower", his "survivalist bunker" that he
and his family can escape to...he doesn't care, you see, because he's made
sure he'll be alright, Jack...now he's just working on being insanely
rich - a touch of legal "embezzlement" by starting wars that he then
insists only his "friends" can make billions from "reconstruction"
contracts (people he's sure to be working for once he leaves office
because, hey, that's who was employing Cheney and so forth before they got
in office) - before it happens so that he can buy "stockpiles" and finish
things off to be totally self-sufficient...

That "ordinary guy" is, of course, rich-kid 43rd president George Walker
Bush Junior..."Dubya" to his friends and foes alike...you know, that
"Texan" who's from Massachusettes...the rich kid who pretends he's "one of
the folks"...who completely acknowledges environmentalism and
self-sufficiency on his own personal ranch - preparing his own personal
"escape route" for him and his daughters to live in luxury - but then
refuses to acknowledge "global warming" as even existing in his official
Presidential capacity so that he can trash all the environmental laws to
help out his lobbying "friends" who'll likely be his direct employers once
he leaves office (hey, it's quite true...the population is getting older
and we all need to plan for our "retirement", yes?)...

You think the WMD was the only lie he perpetuates? The man is a complusive
liar...so much so, when you hear him say anything, assume the _opposite_
and you're bound to not be far from the truth...Texan? Southerner? Ordinary
guy? Yeah, you guessed it...rich kid with no connection to the reality of
ordinary Americans at all, born in the North, educated to the highest
standards (though, strings must have been pulled because he's clearly an
idiot and couldn't have got in on merit..."daddy" must have signed a cheque
for an international airport to get them to even consider little old
Dubya...yes, joke copyright The Simpsons ;) and is privileged enough that
when he wanted "time off" National Guard, he just walked and _nothing
happened_...that, indeed, might be the _bigger_ issue than the fact he
regularly walked away from National Guard demonstrating his "casual"
approach to his national duty in a time of war and his lack of
qualifications as any kind of "war president" (save the interpretation of
"war president" as solely meaning "president who likes to send others into
war" but doesn't mean he has any comprehension of what war is...witness the
non-existent "plan for peace" and a whole series of disasters - averaging
_one a week_ often that the newspapers have a new disaster to report and
analyse almost every day for over two years continuously - to testify that
particular interpretation), but the fact that he could do so with complete
impunity (even when, one of the many times he walked off, he didn't tell
anyone and disappeared for a month or so...this would be _arrest_ for
anyone else but spoilt-brat Bush having strings pulled in the right places
to let him work on his political career whenever he felt like doing
so)...how many "ordinary guys" have that kind of privilege?

So, you see...if I was to install my solar system then I'd only be
following the good example of your 43rd President, "Dubya" himself...he
seems to think it's a good idea because he's already done so...granted,
Texas has the climate for it but then that would apply to all Texans (and
nearby environs), wouldn't it, not just Dubya? His system of also recycling
all his wastewater is also very impressive environmental concern he shows
there...

So, if I'm such a "wacko" to talk of this stuff, Annie, and we're also
decided to defend Bush blindly, then you've just cornered
yourself...because, irony of ironies, Bush himself has a role model
environmental system attached to his personal ranch...so, you're either
saying that Bush himself is also a "leftist wacko" (which should worry you,
as he's your President for the next 4 years ;) or, also by extension, that
I'm not really a "wacko" at all because you want to defend that Bush
isn't...

Game, set and match, I think...thank you, Mr.Bush...one can always depend
on your compulsive lying and hypocrisy to operate with the efficiency of
Swiss clockwork ;)...

> If you'd like, I'll be happy to send you one from the U.S.A. They're
> a little easier to find here than where YOU are. Less expensive, too.
> Or you can always order on-line. Let us know. Hehehe!

More plentiful, true...but then, as you like to remind us otherwise, yours
is a _MASSIVE_ country (indeed, as a "union of states", one could even see
it as a "union of nations" in terms of size and populations because many
states are alone the equal of countries elsewhere in the world...the
European-Union-to-be is the closest to a comparison on those
statistics...after all, "state" tends to mean "nation / country" usually
and is only different in America because of the historical / political
make-up of your country's formation...as you noted yourself, it's talked
about as being "one" only on a political basis...in terms of much
everything else - state size, population, own separate legislative bodies,
own separate legal jurisdictions, etc. - then it would be a "union of
nations" in the terms used elsewhere in the world...indeed, "union of
states" _DOES_ mean that...but we're so used to not looking at "state" in
America in the same context that we'd look at, say, "France" or "Germany"
being a "state" that I'm using "nation" or "country" to take away the
natural "compensation" that we naturally apply when talking about "state"
in the American context)...so, in terms of size and population, 1% of your
country is an awful lot more than 1% of any other country, _whatever_ we're
talking about...indeed, Britain would need 5% before it could physically
get anywhere near America's 1%, so to speak (taking the 260 million
mentioned in the election as a guide but then that was, in fact, only
_registered voters_ that the actual population is larger...the UK
population is around 60 million and is worked from census information, not
voter lists, so is reasonably reliable as a figure)...

Also, of course, Great Britain is an island (and the UK a series of
islands...hey, don't forget those three-legged Manx people with their
freakish no-tailed cats! ;)...hence, you can't ever be that far away - no
more than an hour or two - from a coast, wherever you are...we're also
sticking out into the Atlantic Ocean and on the receiving end of a few
weather things like the Gulf Stream (indeed, as cold as Britain is, it
really should be _much colder_ from its Northern position on the global
but - thank you America, as it was when North and South America banged into
each other and cut off the "gap" through which it used to flow - the Gulf
Stream flows up to us with warmer weather)...the main reason why our
weather here is so changeable and bizarre...hit by the warm Gulf Stream
from below, icy polar winds from above, etc....which tends to clash and
gives us things like the unique weather phenomenon of "drizzle" that really
does often _NEED TO BE EXPLAINED_ to people from other countries, as they
have no equivalent type of rain...it's rain that's so fine that it's more
like "wet air"...it doesn't look or feel like it's falling at all but
rather that the air itself is "wet" and looks more like fog to the
eye...like you're actually inside a rain cloud rather than underneath it
and it's falling on your head, so to speak...you don't feel anything fall
on you...you just walk out and the air itself feels wet...stand around for
a minute or two and you're covered in water from head to foot...yes, where
everyone else sunbathes under the Sun, we don't much see the Sun and "rain
bathe" instead, so to speak...okay, I exaggerate - we do have a kind of
Summer and Winter too...though, the division between them and Spring and
Autumn raininess is not always a simple, clear divide between the seasons -
but it's a nice description that people aren't shocked to encounter such
weather when they get here...indeed, the most often used words on weather
forecasts are "mild" and "rainy"...those two words about sums up UK
weather...

Anyway, so the point being that America has more such solar systems is
hardly surprising...and, of course, it's "market forces" regards the price
and availability...indeed, this comment _PROVES_ what I'm saying...if lots
of Brits started adopting PV systems to match the American figures (despite
population differences) then the price and availability would drop to match
America...

You have a bizarre way of arguing a point...indeed, you just seem intent on
saying _ANYTHING_ that's opposite to what I'm saying, not bothering with a
consistent argument at all (watch that...once I work out that you're doing
it, it makes you easy to "corner" and make you contradict yourself, looking
stupid ;)...you claim it's "wacko leftist" (even though Bush has exactly
such a system on his own ranch to environmentalist "role model" levels) and
that "it'll never work"...then suddenly contradict yourself by now saying
"Yes, America has tons of these systems which are working well - better
than _YOU_! - and is in a better position than Britain for this kind of
thing"...well, yeah, _EXACTLY_...kind of my point all along...glad to see
you're finally "getting" it a little, Annie ;)...

You've helped _confirm_ all my points accidentally while trying to just do
your old "random insult" thing that you do...indeed, I'm getting more
confirmation of my points from those who apparently think they are arguing
against them...when I said that panels on every roof could make a
significant contribution, to prove me wrong, the figures were pulled out
and, oops, seems that I was actually right when the (undeniable)
mathematics are done...and when they were done on _Britain_, where I'd be
the first to admit we're starting with a weather disadvantage...indeed, if
the figures _could_ potentially make it here, then nowhere else has much of
any excuse in comparison...you, indeed, have the better climate (in many
places, anyway...granted, such a big country, that it's impossible to
"generalise" climate across all of America..."New England", for instance,
isn't the place to avoid Winter weather over Christmas ;)...you are the
world's first richest nation, we're only 4th over here...so, coupled with
cheaper prices and availability, you are, indeed, also in the better
position to afford to do so too (again, it's impossible to "generalise" all
of America, so this isn't meant to say "everyone" can do so...but just that
you're best placed world-wise to that...there is a "gap" between rich and
poor (widening under Bush but I'll leave the politics out of this for a
moment, so it doesn't distract from the point) that 1 in 8 Americans are at
or below the official poverty line, for example)...

Hey, Bush knows it...that's why he's already got these systems installed on
his ranch...it has unofficial Presidential endorsement (though, while this
adminstration is working in the interests of making their energy company
"friends" rich, they are refusing to officially admit such...let's pull out
some more interesting statistics...biggest corporate donator to Bush's 2000
election: Enron...biggest individual donation to Bush's 2000 election:
Kenneth Lay (then CEO of _Enron_...also, large contributions were "spread"
over Kenneth Lay's family members and Enron employees...a means to try to
"hide" - against the laws that insist all contributions _must_ be publicly
available - the big "blip" that Enron was funding a massive part of the
campaign of a President, who, coincidentally, argues for drilling in
Alaska, refuses to acknowledge "global warming", pulls out of Kyoto and
has, in fact, done more regards destroying environmental laws than anything
else in his Presidency (the "war" distracts people away from noticing this
but he has decimated environmental laws across the board for his "friends"
to make profits without pollution regulation or any such thing)...another
interesting fact: California produced _enough_ energy to sustain itself but
due to energy company deregulation, mismanagement and, yes, even
_delibrately holding power back_, a false "energy crisis" was
created...sounds bizarre until you realise that they can _raise_ prices
during an "energy crisis" legitimately to increase profits...who's going to
notice that it's raised slightly above what any "energy crisis" actually
demands and that they "coincidentally" make more profits under "crisis"
conditions than ordinary non-crisis operations? Exactly...the official
right-wing "think tanks" openly state that this is their thinking: _CREATE_
"economic crisis" because this can further and legitimise extreme
right-wing conservative policies...indeed, when Bush proposes drilling
Alaska, everyone says "yes, of course...we have a 'crisis' so we need to do
so"...the fact that the "crisis" is completely _artificially created_ just
to increase profits is the carefully not-mentioned "secret"...that - like
creating disproportionate FEAR over "terrorism" allows Bush to write in
"police state" laws into the books without anyone blinking - you can make
illegitimate things seem "legitimate" by simply artifically creating a
"crisis" or two...they wouldn't do that? Of course they would: It makes
more profits and imposes right-wing ideology over things by necessity from
people with clearly the extreme right-wing ideology and thirst for profits
blindly (with multiple instances - torture, death, etc. - demonstrating
that if you think "conscience" or "morals" get in the way of them doing
it...then _think again_...the levels of contempt for fellow humans is only
beaten by the absolute right-wing extremeism of the Nazis)...

Don't you get it? It's all one massive _scam_...conning an entire nation
with some "pyramid scheme" with invented "happy customers" endorsing it, in
the spam Email propoganda sent to everyone's mental "inbox"...and, no, I
don't consider myself a "green" or argue much of their "greenhouse gases"
argument exactly because blind "tribalism" _IS_ the problem, as you rightly
diagnosed, Ms.ASCII...indeed, some "recycling" schemes are nothing but
"psychological candy", in fact, and the people collect it and simply dump
it all into a landfill when no-one's looking...charge a little extra for
the service of "separating" and "reprocessing" but then, as no-one's
actually scrutinising what you're doing, then just dump the whole lot in a
landfill like everything else because no-one's looking...extra profits, no
extra work...who's going to know? No-one's concern enough - not even
supposed "greens" - to do much scrutinising and verification...indeed, the
general problem with humans is "tribalism" and "slackers" and such...that's
a kind of "constant" you can always rely on in anything humans do...pick a
recycling scheme randomly and, chances are, if you watched it at the right
times, you'd find the "slacker" who grabs the stuff and throws it into
ordinary landfill waste disposal when no-one's looking to make their job
easier...bosses may also back it up unofficially, thinking of the extra
profits when their employees do such things...you know, a case of "look the
other way" because catching out your own employees, in fact, only means
reducing your own profits...no "checks and balances" in the corporate area
and only the Almighty Dollar rules...

Why does everyone defend centralised power automatically? Quotes
"inefficiency" and "pollution" automatically but I've yet to see a
reference or citation that _proves_ that...it's just some "common
knowledge" that is stated blindly..."decentralisation" - as it has done in
democracy, file sharing, the internet and many other examples - is in _OUR_
interests and always has been..."tribalism" _IS_ the problem because it has
this insistance on creating "Kings" and "Queens" and bowing blindly to
their wishes...

But _YOU_ are better than that...we _DON'T_ need them...if someone did
assassinate the President tomorrow, then America would carry on...they are
only "leaders"...people put into _management_ roles...democracy has no
"rulers"...the will of leaders _should_ and _must_ be challenged in
democracy...decentralise all of it: Private ownership for the
right-wingers, no more "aristocracy" for the left-wingers...we all
universally agree on _democracy_ because these are the principles it makes
real...not a leftist or rightist thing at all...but a "self-evident
truth"...the only thing that I would agree with Bush and Blair on:
Democracy _IS_ our best chance for peace, prosperity, security, Liberty,
etc....no more Kings, no more "police state", no more bullcrap...Frankie
say, Frankie say, Frankie say: NO MORE!

"Leave them behind, those clouds of trouble
We have to find a world that's new
Buy a new dress and go out dancing
Do all the things you wanna do

For Heaven's sake, you have to break away
Unchain yourself, from the mood of today

We don't need aggression
We don't need recession

Just give us some money
Our lives could be sunny too

We don't need regression
Or means of repression
Our lives could be sunny too (ooh)

Our lives should be so full of laughter
With endless joy to follow after
Summer comes to girls and boys
Never too late, but to enjoy, to enjoy

In my head, In my head, In my head,
In my head, In my head, In my head...

Oh, come on down from your ivory tower
Unlock the doors and give us flowers
We've worked for you now for far too long
We've done what's right, you've done us wrong

For Heaven's sake, we got to break away
Unchain yourself, from the mood of today

We don't need regression
To make your impression

Oooh, the world is waiting
We need to go out dancing
Oooh, the world is waiting
We need a new TV
Oooh, the world is waiting
We don't need fear and fighting
Oooh, the world is waiting
We don't need history

In my head, In my head, In my head,
In my head, In my head, In my head...

She [ Maggie ] should buy us all a drink
She should buy us all a drink
She should stop and think, stop and think
She should buy us all a drink

Yeah

We don't need recession
Or means of aggression

Just give us some money (Unchain yourself)
Our lives could be sunny too, ooh

Just give us some money
Our lives could be sunny too, ooh

She should stop and think, stop and think

We don't need regression
Or means of repression

Just give us some money (Unchain yourself)
Our lives could be sunny too, ooh"

[ "For Heaven's Sake", Frankie Goes to Hollywood, "Liverpool" ]

Beth :)

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