Re: Need help on modifying and assembly of a small program!
From: Frank Kotler (fbkotler_at_comcast.net)
Date: 02/17/05
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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:10:08 -0500 To: "luxasm-devel@lists.sourceforge.net" <luxasm-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Beth wrote:
...
> I ain't gonna claim anything but IE is "broken"...it's simply _lynx_ that's
> "broken"...every other "main" browser handles the situation correctly, as
> per the W3C standards and RFCs that they should...
Okay, the "problem" (as I've seen it) is specific to lynx. I
haven't RTFM on W3C and the relevant RFCs. Someone...
perhaps Phil(?)... posted that spaces in "href"s *aren't*
per standards...
The real question we need to answer is "what do we support?"
If the docs aren't going to work with lynx, I can live with
that. But I assume we want to provide the "widest
compatibility" that we can - *without* giving up
functionallity we need. So far, I think we're doing fine -
running a script (or two) over your contributions will fix
the "lynx problem" *and* the "xhtml problem".
> By the way, we're only talking about renaming files without spaces (and the
> odd "HREF" change)...
Only the "HREF" (or "href") change... I'm not insisting that
you name your files "xlib-ch-1.1.html"... or "Xlib..."
(uppercasing X seems "conventional").
> all my browsers interpret it correctly...would it not
> make the most sense if the person with the "broken" browser makes the
> changes because then you can "test" that they worked? Would not that be
> logical? Otherwise, you know what'll happen: "Beth, change this!" / "Right,
> I've changed it" / "No, Lynx still doesn't like it...change it again!" /
> "Okay, I've changed it again" / "No, lynx also doesn't like underscores
> either...change it again!"...blah-blah-blah...
Agreed. I wasn't suggesting that you be the one to run the
scripts, necessarily. I'm "harping" on the issue more
because NoDot thinks the changes (for xhtml) should be done
"now", and I think "when Beth is done adding new files"
would be a better (easier) time. What I'm looking for from
*you* is agreement that changing spaces in "href"s to "%20"s
is okay with you, and maybe a hint when you think is an
appropriate time to make the change.
> If you change it, Frank, then you can see directly if it works with
> lynx...plus, my CVS client is a bit "simple"...it doesn't do "CVS rename"
> directly...are you using the real "cvs" program and do you know how to do
> this in a less "cluttered" way than "delete all files, add same files back
> with new names", which is going to trash the CVS "version history" stuff
> horribly to do, if I did it like that?
AFAIK, CVS doesn't do "rename" (I could be wrong on that -
hope so). I think that removing and re-adding the files -
with the attendant problems - is what we'd have to do. At
the present time, I'm not suggesting that - although I *do*
think that spaces in filenames - and directory names - *can*
cause problems (HLA users who let Windoze install their
stuff in "progra~1" <G> have trouble too - it isn't *just* a
"lynx thing"). We *might* want to consider actually changing
the filenames at some point, but let's not rush into it -
don't want to have to do it twice!
> For the record, though, I don't use IE, I use Mozilla...I also _have to_
> connect with Windows because Linux doesn't support my USB-connected
> modem...I'm also perfectly aware that XHTML is lowercase only (and tags
> must match and lone tags should have a slash at the end and...and...) but,
> sorry, I didn't see there was any useful point whatsoever to "XHTML
> compatibility"...why? Any useful reason...or just the only thing anyone
> could find to, yet again, "nit-pick" and "criticise" whatever I
> do...what'll it be next? "Your CSS is not level 3 compliant!!"...yeah,
> right...and I should care _why_ exactly?
Because you want your work to be useful to the maximum
number of people?
NoDot seems to think that xhtml is the coming thing, and
that html is soon to be relegated to "legacy support". I
have no opinion on xhtml - don't even know what it is. I
don't think lowercase tags are going to be a "problem" to
me, and NoDot wants it - just trying to agree with him, for
once :)
> Filenames causing _YOUR_ browser not to work? Fine, _YOU_ change it...you
> randomly want "XHTML compatibility" for no particular reason? Fine, _YOU_
> convert it...and accept my full apologies for being "inferior"...sorry, but
> as I see it, _C_ has the right to criticise because he's actually, you
> know, DONE something...you lot are even trying to wriggle out of just
> renaming files and asking for bizarre "lowercase" for no practically useful
> reason...
LOWERCASE IS NOT THAT BIZARRE :)
> Any particular reason why you can't just rename the files yourself and
> update the CVS? You're an "admin", Frank...it's not as if you can claim to
> "not have access" or anything...and it isn't "coding", it's just renaming
> files...
Last time someone corrected a bunch of "errors" in your
files, without discussing it first, you got quite upset,
Beth! Now you're biting my head off for discussing it.
> Oh, indeed, you just go and rename all those _HUNDREDS_ of files I've put
> together there _BY HAND_ mostly...might help you start appreciating the
> work I've put in to stop all these "snipes", "nit-picks" and "criticisms"
> all the time...I'll happily "respect my elders", the second I see them
> respecting me too...again, for the record: I use _MOZILLA_ and I have _NO
> CHOICE_ about the Windows connection, the "support" ain't there...also, I
> use Outlook because it can do "IMAP" with a Hotmail account (a
> "proprietary" thing) and, if I'm going to get spammed with my "spam
> catching" Email, then I choose to put all that crap on Microsoft's servers
> and let them pay the expense of storage...not just because I don't like
> them but because they are the ones who can most afford it and, also, one
> could say that this kind of thing "contributed" towards pissing MS off
> enough for their whole "anti-spam" crusade (a shame that the "clean up" is
> more PR than reality, eh? Or it would do the entire internet a
> service)...any other questions? Or can we now shut up? Thank you very much
> :)...
No, we can't shut up. I doubt if you'd like it if we did.
Maybe we should discuss this later?
> > > Now that PCs - Windows and Linux - don't have such "crippled" nonsense
> > > anymore, pardon that I'm now delighted that I can actually give files
> > > _NAMES_, rather than cryptic initials...well, at least you're only
> asking
> > > for the spaces to disappear...if you also insisted on "8.3" filenames,
> you
> > > can go doing it yourself!!
Never fit ".html" into ".3" :)
> > Spaces in the filenames aren't the problem. Spaces in the
> > "href"s are the problem, and Phil's "Perl routine" solves
> > it. It could use to be "wrapped" in a "script" - it only
> > removes *one* space per invokation. Something "automated"
> > that would remove all relevant spaces from all files... and
> > recurse subdirectories... would be easier... but it's
> > something we'll only need to do once. And, yes, we need to
> > quote the filenames when we feed 'em to the "script".
>
> Okay, there's the problem and there's the solution for you...put "%20" into
> the HREFs...
Yup. And perhaps change the "HREF"s to "href"s for "wider
compatibility" - unless there's a reason not to...
> Any reason why you've not done it yet?
Yes, because the last time someone changed your files, you
asked for discussion first. Being a lazy slob has *nothing*
to do with it! :)
> Your CVS access is still working,
> yes?
Yep. (raps self on head - "knock on wood"!)
> Although, I thought we'd agreed - but feel free to now undo that - that it
> would probably make more sense to remove spaces from the filenames and not
> use spaces in any filenames anymore? You know, rather than use that script
> to "patch" over the problem, target the root cause...this is why I was
> talking about "removing spaces from filenames"...I thought that was what we
> were going to do from now on - no filenames with spaces anymore - in order
> to not just "fix" the problem but make sure it doesn't happen again, by
> introducing a new "no spaces" rule (I already have to keep to a "case
> sensitive" rule, even though Windows doesn't care...because, of course,
> UNIX servers _DO_ care...it doesn't hurt to also add in a "no spaces"
> filename rule on top of that too)...
Well, if that's the general consensus, fine. I wasn't aware
that we'd come to a firm decision on that. (maybe a post
that didn't "send"?). In any case, let's not rush into it.
> > > Anyway, lest anyone think spaces in filenames is any kind of
> "Windows-ism",
> > > it isn't...
> >
> > Okay, how many filenames with spaces in 'em do you find on
> > your Linux box, besides yours? I don't know *why* they're
> > not ordinarily used... they're "allowed"... Maybe it's
> > because I'm not the only one who finds 'em a big fat PITA?
>
> Because not having them - as I explained in the long story - is a
> UNIX-ism...which CP/M copied and DOS copied from CP/M...most other OSes,
> though, are perfectly happy with them...
>
> And the reason UNIX avoids them is because of the way its "shell"
> works...technically, the command itself is _ALSO_ a filename: '"web
> browser" "filename"'...for simplicity, therefore, spaces are typically
> excluded to avoid this issue of quoting everything all the time...not a
> problem for other OSes with GUI front ends or those with "built-in
> commands"...UNIX has a different orientation in that regard...other shells
> elsewhere tended to have things like: 'LOAD "filename"' or 'CHAIN
> "FILENAME"'...UNIX's commands are also files themselves, so it went for an
> "abbreviated" form to make these easier to deal with...
>
> Althoughdespitebeingapaininthearse,Frank,perhapsspacesmight,
> Idon'tknow,servesomekindofusefulpurpose...Iwonderwhatthatmightbe?
> Youdon'tthinkitmighthaveanythingtodowithreadability,doyou?Withitbeingthemor
> enaturalwayofwritingandnamingthingslikefiles?
> ShallIcontinueorhavewehadenoughdemonstrationofwhat'sreally
> thetruepaininthearsepracticeforpeopletobefollowing?
Welldon'twritethetextlikethatjustthefilenamesandhrefs.
<a href="xlib/ch1/ch-1.1.html"> X Library Chapter One,
Section One - Overview of the X Windows System </a>
...or so...
> The point of my little "rant" was to make clear that it's _UNIX_ that was
> the original "pain in the arse" and CP/M and DOS copied it...that _UNIX_
> was the "exception" here, NOT the other way around..._UNIX_ was the one
> being "strange" and "unique" in this regard, NOT other OSes...it was the
> original "pain in the arse" and, eventually, every OS but DOS has seen the
> light to make spaces and long filenames permissible...yes, even UNIX has
> now "fixed" its own mistake...
>
> The lack of spaces since the "fix" is to do with "convention" and to do
> with typing out command-lines...
Yep.
> you can get "text" web browsers but it is
> an inherently graphical medium...you shouldn't be typing out anything but
> one filename (with quotes) to launch it...and, from then on, the browser
> _SHOULD_ deal with them properly...lynx doesn't but it's the "odd one out"
> for that and, standards-wise, it could be considered a "bug" or, at least,
> a "non-compliance"...
Well, let's call it a "non-compatibility"...
...
> I wouldn't say "dump SF", though...their facilities are good and
> useful...and it only effects the mailing-list...
Yeah. I should have said, "dump the SF mailing list".
> I just need to find some
> other free Email thingy or something...I think it's much easier for
> Mohammed to go to the mountain than the other way around, yes?
Yeah... it's not "your" problem, but if you can fix it on
your end, that might be easiest.
...
> ...or, indeed, NoDot mentioned he has "spare" Emails on his
> Email thingy...might be easiest to "borrow" one of those, if that works...
We might have a "spare" mailbox, too... I'd have to check.
As it stands, the theives at comcast are bitching about our
bandwidth usage, and we might be about to bolt... so that
wouldn't be great...
> It would be "overkill" to dump SF because of this one little thing...not
> least because, in a strange way, I kind of "approve"...if only they could
> "boycott MS" without it effecting me posting to the list, eh? :)
Well, if you "join the boycott" it would be one solution...
...
> well, except bad mouth Bush but I do that totally openly -
No *wonder* you're having problems with your "microphone"!
:)
> ,..I have another
> "spare" hard drive but it's only 1GB...perhaps DOS or something?
I've got a 125M drive with CP/M-86 and a small dos FAT16
partition to use as a "transfer area" - some of the dos-cpm
utilities don't like FAT32. Those old, "small" drives are
still useful... for "appropriate" software...
> Which, of course, brings up the other thing about "two machines"...I can
> still "dual boot" them...so, you know, I could set it up so that, when
> Annie posts some DOS code, I could reset the other machine to DOS to try it
> out...then you post something about Linux, reboot to try that out...and,
> all along, I can keep this in Windows and keep the newsgroup on the
> screen...
That would be cool. You could keep the newsgroup on the
screen in Linux and reboot the "other" machine, too :)
> But, indeed, the best would be "home network"...I can't really make that
> work at the moment, though...one day, though...save up the pennies and buy
> all the "hubs" and cables and network cards and stuff...
Shouldn't cost too much, if you don't insist on the "latest
and fastest"... The hassle of accumulating the stuff, and
getting it all to work together, is likely to be more of a
problem.
> but, though nice,
> improving the Linux box might make more immediate sense because the limited
> RAM and crap monitor really can get _highly annoying_ running X...and,
> well, for LuxAsm, it'll end up all being run under X and such...the
> "network" is a nice idea but it's not the greatest problem at the
> moment...but if I ever have an "excess" of cash to spend (yes, not too
> often an occurance, unfortunately ;), then I'd give it a go...
Yeah, being able to run X comfortably is going to be a help
in developing/testing LuxAsm :) However, testing it on a
klunky slow old machine will help pinpointing any "problem"
slow areas.
...
> 15GBs? Snap! That's what my Linux machine's got too...it did have the 4GB
> drive but when I found a 15GB, I "relegated" that to a "second hard drive"
> and put the 15GB as the "main" one...
My current installation is running on a 4G partition...
really too small, if you're going to be doing things like
building Bison and HLA from source... and keeping the source
:)
> ah, that's another thing...I also tend
> to always have the full quota of hard drives installed in every machine, as
> well...
Ah. That eliminates the possibility of putting your "Linux
drive" in the "good machine"... or complicates it...
> like "two machines", once you start plugging in and using two hard
> drives all the time, you don't want to go back...not just the extra space
> but it's "nice" to, you know, have a "programs drive" and a "data
> drive"...this is also an immense benefit when you get around to "upgrading"
> your machine...
Or needing to re-install the OS 'caused it crashed so hard
the installer *insists* on formatting the drive :) I guess
XP doesn't do that... as often...
> the "programs drive" with the OS and applications? Ah, screw
> that...but you can directly pull out the "data drive" and plug it into the
> new machine...oh, yes...as I say, once you start doing this kind of thing,
> you don't want to go back and this has to be one massive benefit to doing
> it like this...no copying files around or anything...just buy your new
> "upgraded" machine with whatever new "Longhorn 7" OS is installed on it and
> plug in your "data drive"...there, instant access to all your source code
> and documentation and such...
>
> Indeed, I have a bunch of hard drives and a friend was asking "what are
> they all for?"...well, to a programmer and person who likes to play with
> the "innards" of a PC, they are effectively "removeable drives", yeah? Need
> to transfer an absolutely massive files or tons of files? Stick in a second
> hard drive, copy it onto that, take it out and stick it in another
> machine...there, sure beats floppy disks, eh? :)
Absolutely! I've got "drawers" in my machine for several
hard drives.
> Mind you, these days, those "flash" memory cards and stuff have just the
> same kinds of capacities and speeds without the "plugging it in" hassles
> (can actually do it without switching off the machine beforehand :)...
Sounds intrigueing. Never played with one.
> so,
> the days might be numbered on this little idea...but it has served me well
> for many years...just keep a Phillips screwdriver handy, I say...
The advantage of the "drawers", besides being able to "swap"
'em, is that you can install a new HD without even the
Phillips screwdriver - just slide the drawer out, pop the
old HD out of it, unplug it, plug in the new one, slide the
drawer back in... don't forget to let the bios "probe" the
new drive.. Next best thing to "hot swap"...
>there's
> nothing more annoying, in fact, than all these new "brand" machines with
> stupid "stickers" covering the case because breaking the sticker breaks the
> "warranty"...
Hell, installing new *software* voids the warranty on some
of 'em!
> and the "non-standard" proprietary fittings where nothing but
> their "own brand" stuff fits into it...come on, this is a PC! You're
> _SUPPOSED_ to open them up! :)
Yeah... but I have to move some crap first... :)
> > I boot into dos, and start Linux with "loadlin".
>
> Really? I prefer GRUB...
Never tried GRUB. When I first installed Linux, it was on
the same drive as my Windows partition, and I'd heard
"horror stories" of people who'd installed "lilo" and
couldn't get rid of it, so I got in the habit of doing it
this way. Besides, I like booting into dos and having to
decide, "what'll it be today? win or lin?" :)
...
> "LILO" was a nightmare when I had a Windows / Linux "dual boot" before, as
> I'd boot it up then forget to press the key in time to "catch" the
> opportunity to ask for Linux to be loaded instead and it would start
> booting Windows...then I'd hit "reset" then, oops, I'd forget again...
Sounds like a short-term memory problem, to me :)
> you
> know, it could get rather silly very quickly...especially when one
> shouldn't really just hit the reset switch in the middle of Windows
> loading...though, ummm, it never seemed to do that much harm *cough* at any
> point ;)...
One advantage to using an OS that's broken to begin with!
...
> Yeah, that CD-ROM thing is a problem before that "certain date" when they
> all started to "autoboot"...luckily, both these machines here are capable
> of this...but, yeah, requires both the CD-ROM and the BIOS to "understand"
> what's going on to actually work properly...
The bios offers to boot from "scsi" or "cdrom", but neither
seems to work... even on a "known good" bootable cd... (what
I've got installed is "scsi", but not too "standard", I
think - the "test" one is plain IDE.)
> Ah, the other "issue" is that I put Red Hat 9 on the machine...I was
> thinking of "upgrading" but they've gone all "Fedora" or something...yeah,
> I know, there are other "distros" but Red Hat's nice from the perspective
> that it's all pretty "brain-dead" installation-wise...and the "RPM" thing
> is nice...that should really be more "standardised", or something like it
> at least, because it sorts out both "install" and "uninstall" quickly and
> properly...
I think RH's "RPM" system is becoming fairly "standard".
Slackware (which is what I've got) wasn't an "early
adopter", but seems to have relaxed to the inevitable...
> Indeed, thinking about it, I think that whole Microsoft open source "wix"
> project is something similar for Windows...pass it some XML file with
> "installation instructions" and then it's all automated with the nice
> option of "doing it all backwards" to cleanly uninstall...
I once used an "installer creator script language" from NSIS
(PD, as I recall) to make an installer for Nasm, once.
Seemed pretty nice.
> [ I think, these days, some kind of "install / uninstall" functionality
> should probably be "built-in" to OSes...this could even help to improve
> "security", perhaps...if all programs have to go through some "install"
> process to be executable, then the OS could do some "MD5 sum" on the
> file...and then whenever you go to run the program again, it can check the
> "sum" once more to ensure that no nasty virus has attached itself to the
> file...and, if part of the OS itself, then it could store these "sums" out
> of reach from viruses being able to read them...perfect place for a "virus
> checker" to attach itself...so, as well as providing "easy and clean
> install / uninstall", it could also be used to improve the
> "security"...some "policy" where no executable file is permitted to be
> executable without passing it through the "install" procedure (which is
> where a "virus checker" can check it, the OS can work out a "checksum"
> which it can then use to "double-check" the program has not been modified
> and the "install" procedure can _always_ show a "do you want to install
> XYZ?" prompt on the screen, so you can't have any "spyware" or "viruses"
> trying to install themselves without a big prompt flashing up in the middle
> of the screen...unless they get "permissions" to be installed by the user
> with the prompt, they can't be executed :)... ]
No "validation" by a "foreign power" though, okay? :)
> > Meanwhile, although "bit rot" is setting in, this
> > installation is still working... and serves as a test of
> > "legacy support"... or not...
>
> Mind you, one cure for "bit rot" is talking on a newsgroup...I always think
> my machine here is very crap but then someone comes on and talks about
> their "'386 with 4MB of RAM" and then I think "oh, it's not so bad"...it's
> a 450MHz AMD, in fact, so it really isn't so bad...but, well, whatever
> you've got, it's never quite "good enough", eh? :)
Well, my K6-300 is "good enough"... but "fgrep", called by
the bootup/reboot scripts, is reporting a segfault. Didn't
used to do that. I suspect mind-control rays from MS got at
it when I had the tinfoil hat off the machine...
Best,
Frank
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