Re: Click...

"Beth" wrote:
>
> Truth is, _NONE_ (yes, including the "pop stars") of these people are
> economists (perhaps worryingly)...

Actually, I would not want any of the G8 to actually be economists. Their
jobs as leaders of their respective countries encompasses much more than
just simple economics.

There are full-time academic economists out there in the world that advise
the various governments. These are the economists I refer to , and that you
(in your post) have totally ignored.

If all G8 leaders were simple economists, then I would imagine that social
programs would be dastically cut as they are not entiterly economical.
Social healthcare would be cut. Environmental issues would be cut.... etc.

>
> They, just like the celebrities being mocked, are simply winners of
> "popularity contests" too...for having the "nicest sounding lies" and
> promises that are never kept at elections...

If that were entirely true, then the G8 countries would be in terrible
shape. Speaking as a Canadian, here is what our current Prime Minister, Mr.
Paul Martin has accomplished in recent years:

>From 1991 to 1993, Martin was associate finance critic and critic for the
environment for the Liberal opposition in the House of Commons.
Liberals were returned to power in the 1993 vote and Martin was sworn in as
Minister of Finance. He served in that role from November 1993 until June
2002.

During his time as finance minister, Canada recorded five consecutive budget
surpluses, erased a $42 billion deficit, paid down more than $36 billion in
debt, invested in health care and other key priorities and put in place the
largest tax cuts in Canadian history.

So he might no a little about economics don't you think? Probably a little
bit more than a pop star.... don't you think?

But you know what?
I don't need a politician to tell me that attending a benefit concert will
not stop Africa's wars.
I don't need a politician to tell me that attending a benefit concert will
not stop Africa's corruption.
I don't need a politician to tell me that attending a benefit concert will
not stop Africa's mis-management.

>
> Bush's qualification was having his father's name...
>
> Blair's qualification was that John Smith died...
>
> Putin's qualifications are in every single KGB "dirty trick" in the
> book...like poisoning and disfiguring the now Ukrainian President to try
> to
> get a Russia-friendly winner (it didn't work but it could have easily been
> an assassination: Killing politicians in other countries simply to
> maintain
> the former glory and control of the "Soviet Empire"? Sound like someone
> you'd trust?)...or taking control of all the media just before the Russian
> elections, so that you didn't even hear that there was any "political
> opposition", while being bombarded with Soviet-style "black propoganda" to
> vote for Putin...
>
> Blah-blah-blah...


What does this have to do with Africa? Your claim that your pop-star
economics and view that Africa's problems would be solved by a few donations
is what the issue was. Now you seem to be dragging everything but the
kitchen sink into this arguement.

You claimed that "The West" was hurting trade with Africa because of unfair
trade practices, because the west had protectionist economies, because the
west imposed unfair taxes. I proved this to be TOTALLY incorrect, and that
the reverse was actually true. You conveniently ignored this, and refused
to comment on it... which was strange since it was the basis for alot of
your
arguement.

>
> ...ah, it's easy to make it "personal" with "pop stars", yeah? But if we
> do
> the same with the G8 leaders, one finds that this group has so much
> "corruption" flowing through its veins that the Maffia look "angelic" and
> "legitimate businessmen" in comparison....yeah, you can "trust" them to
> take
> the "moral" choice, rather than yet more stuffing their pockets with our
> money until we eventually find out and kick them out...
>


The suject was AFRICA. Not Russia, Not Cuba, Not Greenland..... Why do
you continuely change the subject?
When you sent your first post claiming some wildly inaccurate and naive
statements about Africa, I then countered with the actually truth about what
is going on with African trade and economics, You now seem to change tack
and make your arguement all about the G8 leaders.

You really need to accept that your initial views about the African Economy
was uninformed, and work from there.
What you are doing now with your rants is totally off topic and shows that
you refuse to accept the truth when presented.

>
> While "pop star" Bob Geldof was a pop star in 1985...hasn't been one
> since...
> because for the last 20 years, he surrendered any kind of career or,
> to an extent, life, in order to devote himself to this one cause...

It wouldn't be because his Boomtown Rats were not very talented and proved
to be simple "One Hit Wonders". He did not give up the music business....
it was the music business who gave him up.

> ...who has
> lived and breathed all the issues, met the people (both who are victims
> and
> the leaders who perpertrate the crimes and all the economic and political
> experts to discuss it with them)

Did he visit the rebels who are fighting in the Congo? did he ask if they
know their actions are making investment in that country unlikely?
Did he visit the Mugabe in Zimbabwe and talk about his country's problems?
And his policies?
Did he visit the rebels in the Ivory Coast and talk about ending the civil
war?
Did he visit the leaders in Somalia and Sudan about ending their internal
wars and bringing the refugee's home?
Did he visit the South African Deputy President Jacob Zuma and ask him about
the corruption charges he faces?
Did he visit the South African President MBerki and ask him if he still
thinks that Aids is a lie that is perpetuated by the West?
Did he visit the Yemen and ask their president why that country harbors and
attracts muslim extremists?
Did he visit Liberia, Central African Republic , etc, etc....?

Not from what I've heard he hasn't.

> and such for those 20 years...possibly
> sensing it would open him up for childish criticisms like this, he
> surrendered his career to avoid the accusation that he was just doing it
> to
> "publicise his career"...his career now _IS_ Africa...he uses his previous
> "pop star" qualifications to arrange concerts and open doors and do
> whatever
> he can...as would be remiss of him not to do if he has those
> "connections",
> really...


Again, he is not an economist. I prefer to listen to the economists when
they speak about the issues that Africa faces with regards to their economic
model and trade practices.

It is clear you prefer to listen to a failed pop-star who believes that if
we just do the same thing that we did back in 1985, then that will fix
everything.

>
> Unlike any politician I've ever seen, Bob has _DONE_ what he says he's
> going
> to do every single time...indeed,

He said in 1985 that he was going to end suffering and poverty in africa
with his simple concert. Did he?


> he saw a BBC news report (by Micheal
> Burke) into the Eithopian famine in 1985...along with millions of others,
> I
> saw that report too...but, of those millions, only Bob _DID_...and maybe
> he
> didn't do it 100% right (over the years, they have acknowledged that the
> "strategy" was wrong..

I see you can quote wikopedia. good. that's a start at least.

At least you are admitting that his little pop concert did not stop
famine and poverty in Ethiopia, as he claimed it would. Here's a little
history of Ethopia in the last 30 years...

In 1974 a military junta, the Derg, deposed Emperor Haile SELASSIE (who had
ruled since 1930) and established a socialist state. Torn by bloody coups,
uprisings, wide-scale drought, and massive refugee problems, the regime was
finally toppled in 1991 by a coalition of rebel forces, the Ethiopian
People's Revolutionary Democratic Front (EPRDF). A constitution was adopted
in 1994 and Ethiopia's first multiparty elections were held in 1995. A two
and a half year border war with Eritrea ended with a peace treaty on 12
December 2000.

Here's an interesting article regarding the latest elections :
http://abcnews.go.com/International/CSM/story?id=883853
And the problems (tainted elections, post-election violence....)

Don't you think that instability and war are major contributors to
ethiopia's poverty? I would.


>.which, by the way, is exactly _WHY_ it's different
> this time around...basically, they were "patching" over problems...and now
> the emphasis is on _CURE_...getting rid of the _CAUSES_ - which very much
> _DOES_ include what we rich people are doing to them


I have outlined the main causes of poverty in Africa (war, corruption,
mis-management), but again you gloss right over them as it obsolving Africa
from repaying their debt automatically solves these problems.


> (so, pressuring the G8
> to change their policy to Africa - and other places in extreme poverty -
> makes one or two "causes" for their poverty vanish) -


Again, you gloss right over the most important part. You claim that it will
make one to two causes of poverty simply vanish. Which causes will vanish?
How?

Will it make Africa's corruption go away? No.
Will it make Africa's mis-management go away? No.
Will it make Africa's wars go away? No.
Will it make Africa's protectionist trade policies go away? No.


> so that the problem is
> _ELIMINATED_, not simply giving some aid - which does do good - but then
> the
> problems come back around next year just the same as the year before)...he
> _DOES_...the rest of you "critics" just talk...

it must be nice to believe in leprechauns, faeries, and Santa Clause......


> no wonder you are _ENVIOUS_...

So now I'm envious am I? interesting. hmmm... what else could you say to
discredit me and the information I have provided you with? Perhaps I'm also
insane, a woman hater, kick dogs, and like my toast buttered on one
side....

> no wonder you create "excuses" by which to make yourselves look
> "superior" for _DOING NOTHING_ but talking...
>

I haven't created any excuses. I have outlined the real issues. You seem
to ignore them however. Do you ever read news about what is happening in
Africa? Or does all your knowledge come from a Pop-star's CD booklet, and
teen magazines?

- you claimed that all problems will be solved by a few concerts and
obsolving Africa's debt.
* I have shown that continuous war, corruption and mis-management would make
this impossible.
- you claimed that the west has unfairly placed taxes on Africa's exports,
and denies Africa free trade.
* I proved that it is Africa who actually imposes major taxes on all
imports, and refuses to open their markets.



>
> _NONE_ of these people are economists - NEITHER the G8 leaders, as much as
> the "pop stars" - and they all rely on asking the actual economists...the
> actual NGO charities...yes, BOTH have saught out the "experts" to "look
> over
> their figures"...so, who's "experts" can we trust more, is perhaps the
> question...

I trust common sense. My common sense tells me that any nation who is in
constant war will have poverty issues. My common sense also tells me that
any nation that has had 186 coups and 26 wars in the last 50 years will
have problems securing economic investment.

You still have glossed over EVERY ONE of these issues in your pop-star
economics.


>
> By the way, one G8 leader has pledged serious commitment (though, he's a
> well-known "promise breaker", so I won't hold my breath) in Tony
> Blair...and
> he's taking it seriously because the facts and figures were shown to him
> and
> all his economists who said it _WAS_ a valid plan...
>

I see. Exactly what "plan" was that? You continue to use the term "plan"
but refuse to devulge the plan's contents.... almost like you expect people
to believe in this "plan's" inherent magical properties to solve war,
corruption and mis-management..


>
> Anyway, you're missing somewhat the point...the celebrities are the "face"
> for the campaign because these are well-known "faces" that we all already
> know...

A face will not solve war, corruption and mis-management.

>
> The "Make Poverty History" / "One" campaign (just UK and US listed here
> but
> it's a world-wide campaign) is a coalition - big and small ...

A marketing campaign will not solve war, corruption and mis-management.





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