Re: Why I stop attacking HLA
- From: "randyhyde@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <randyhyde@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: 2 Sep 2005 15:14:19 -0700
anonymous wrote:
> Betov did in fact provide a decent alternative to Webster and HLA.
I'm afraid the market does not agree with you. But I'm glad you're
happy with what he provides.
> He does not provide coverage of all the same topics covered,
You just said it's an alternative. Now you're saying it's not.
> but he has
> given beginners and others an alternative approach to assembly.
"Alternative" is indeed a good word for it :-).
> RosAsm is a
> great tool indeed,
I'm glad you think so. But keep in mind that most people do not.
> though not finished, has greater consistancy in syntax
I'd have to agree. I think it's consistently bad. :-)
> than most other assemblers (refering to the [var], dword ptr[var] and var
> equivalents in rosasm it will always be d§ prefix),
You *do* realize the problem with his syntax design, don't you? (hint,
negative constants). If you think his syntax is "perfect", think again.
> the IDE is rather good,
Most people who've gotten used to the CUA tend to disagree, as his
editing facilities do *not* follow standard Windows conventions. E.g.,
select a large number of lines in a source file and press the DEL key.
And listen to Rene gripe about scroll bars (they're not even up by
default!). Sure, you can get used to all of this, but why should you?
Microsoft spent a lot of money coming up with good user interface
guidelines and promoting them for consistency across Windows' apps. To
bad Rene ignored all that when developing his user interface.
> with a nearly endless list of great easy to use "plugins". The only big
> minus' is its inability to link to external (static) libraries / existing
> object files.
That's only the *start* of the problems. But it's certainly the most
visible "show stopper" for most people.
> Of course also it has two disadvantages over HLA, the missing
> stdlib (that would however be an autofix if it became able to link to
> external libraries) and the incompatibility to linux.
Without decent macro facilities and a great compile-time language,
RosAsm will never compete with the likes of HLA, MASM, and so on. You
bring up the point of the HLA Standard Library. You do realize that
much of the HLA Standard Library's benefits lie not only in the code
that was written, but in the macros that provide the interface to the
code, right? RosAsm can't even come close to doing something like the
HLA Stdlib "stdout.put" macro, regardless of what Rene claims.
>
> About tutorials, Betov's own are not (or at least weren't for me) the best
> (sorry Betov), but that doesn't matter, because the Bottom_Up_Assembly file
> will teach you how to use RosAsm and it is great reference when
> learning/programming and Betov provides from his webspace download links to
> ported versions of many popular tutorials along with sources to many
> programs.
I only looked at one of the tutorials once, who knows, maybe they've
changed and maybe the others are different. But the one that I looked
at was of the variety "type this text in, select this menu item, look
at the output, ooooh, aaaah..." It basically taught nothing. It was a
demo, not a tutorial. Perhaps the others are different, I don't know.
But it's clear that the "tutorials" that Rene was bragging about last
year existed to fill in a bullet on a feature matrix and served little
other purpose.
As for the B_U_ASM file: subtract the obvious political BS that doesn't
belong in a reference manual and it makes a *fine* reference manual for
the assembler. Lot's of little missing things, as can be expected for a
document like that, but better than typical stuff (e.g., the FASM
reference). But keep in mind that a *reference* manual is for
*reference*, it is not the best tool for *learning* with. In
particular, it is a poor tool for learning how to program from. And
this has nothing to do with the fact that it's a RosAsm manual, this is
true for *all* reference manuals. The HLA Reference Manual is not a
good tool for learning programming from, for example. People who
already know how to program in assembly can pick up a reference manual
and learn how to apply their knowledge to a new product (like RosAsm or
HLA), but they cannot efficiently learn how to program from a reference
manual.
>
> RosAsm has been me a great help in my learning of assembly.
That's great for you. Just keep in mind that you are in the minority.
I'm glad that RosAsm has helped you learn assembly, that's what it's
all about. But I stick by my original assertion that Rene's site
doesn't provide anything that can compete with Webster. If he did,
there would be a lot more people like you, who've learned assembly
language programming from his web site (and I'd also point out that
although Webster certainly favors HLA, it is *not* the only assembly
language presented and taught on Webster).
>
> All of this does not however make him entitled to "troll" you, Randy,
> around,
Of course not.
>
> and Betov this is for you: Words such as ass-hole, troll and other ugly
> nicknames will, when the apropriate smileys are not attached,
Even when the smileys are attached, the use of vulagarity always
reflects negatively on the poster. Most people interpret it as a sign
of a lack of intelligence or an admission of defeat in an argument.
> make you less
> respected and Randy more respected (as long as he doesn't use them toward
> others himself)
If there was no other reason to respect me, your statement would be
absolutely correct. People tend to give their respect to the person who
is a bit more civil and articulate in debates like those that
constantly rage around here.
Then again, Rene constantly tells us that he doesn't care about his
reputation and his only goal in life is to damage mine, no matter what
the cost to him. What he doesn't seem to realize is that in order to
damage my reputation, he needs to first have the respect of the people
reading his stuff. And even if he briefly develops that respect (for
one reason or another), it quickly gets shot down the next time he goes
into one of his tirades.
There is *good* news, however. For the past month or so, Rene's
signal-to-noise ratio has actually risen above zero. He is actually
participating in a few discussions that don't involve bashing me or HLA
(or other people or products). Maybe watching Hutch go into
self-destructive mode has given Rene pause for thought. Maybe someone
has pointed out to him that this is how everyone views *him* around
here.
> It is the socalled "reverse psychology" phenomena in action.
Not really. Reverse psychology is when you do something you expect
someone else to reject, so you can force them into a behavior you want
by making them think you want them to do exactly the opposite.
There is no question that Rene's thinking is a little "backwards" in
many respects. For example, he thinks it's inethical to promote his own
products directly, but feels it's fine to trash other products (as an
indirect way of promoting his products). He seems to think that it's
fine to use a description of himself when talking about other people
(e.g., calling people "liars" when, in fact, he's lying his tail off in
that very post.
Very strange fellow. But it makes for some marvelous entertainment.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
.
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