Re: When caveman Uhg invented fire

Dragontamer wrote:
O.o

Wow. Lots of hate going round for the simple Business owner. Overall, I
see

It is not hate, I call it as I see it.

your point, but it forces you to see Business owners and other leaders
in the world as ultimate evil.

There is no such thing as 'evil,' either by choice or necessity, they
have been drawn into a damaging system. The business owner is in
competition with limited resources with other 'owners' and they will do
anything to increase their ownership, even if it means destroying
someone else's means of living. In short, they (we) are like all the
other animals and plant life on this planet.


Your entire point falls on this: that there is no "choice" in life.

And that is too sad and pessimistic a choice for me to see.

There really is no choice. We are trapped by genetics which has forced
us to create a particular system... one designed on greed. Those who
are more evolved see this, but they are unable to do anything about it
because they are already trapped with no way out... well a couple ways
out but I'll get to those.

If you
don't like
being someone's "slave" for a living, then become a business owner.

Become a "little master," yes. I already did that. But even then,
"little masters" are slaves to all the bigger "masters," but since they
own more things than even smaller "masters" they are to a sence,
content with the degradity of humanity.

But even the smallest "ownership" makes one a slave. They become a
slave to their possessions and must protect them. Their ownership of
anything is based on the thread of illusion: their ownership must be
legally recognized by society. When that illusion collapses, they get
their heads chopped off by a revolt of slaves (and "little masters").

Bill Gates
started somewhere, McDonalds started somewhere. And if you think that
there is only one way to make money, you are sooooo dead wrong. Most
people
are so intent on making inventions (aka, new computer programs) that
they
see that as the only way of making money.

Yes, and they all are trapped in the system as they have been raised by
false values. Their motivation for invention is not for the
advancement of humanity, but for the advancement of their ownership.

Case in point: you can always say no. You never have to accept a job
today,

Right, what's the alternative? Follow Jesus into poverty. Give away
everything you own and go to the gutter. Some fates are worse than
being "little masters."

But even this is not always choice. If you think so you are wrong.
Many have families to support. They *have* to work at whatever shitty
job they have found to provide food, shelter, health care, etc. There
is no escaping the system for most.

you don't have to join a union, you can vote for someone else if you
don't like
anyone.

Anyone you vote for is also trapped in the system. From whom do they
get funding for their election campaigns? Follow the stink of money
and you will find "big masters" looking to increase their ownership.

Frankly speaking: this "hobbiest" you talk about is simply a lazy bum
who "wants"
to change the world, but can't see the world as anything else. He is
scared
to work. Either that, or blinded by his pessimistic views of the world.

No my friend. The hobbiest is often a working "master" of some level,
and works on his hobby on his spare time. He recognizes his humanity
and wants to change the world, but realizes there is no way so he
contributes to make it better in whatever small way he can. Sounds
more like optimizm to me.


Case in point: don't like presidential candidates? Do you know how
*long* you
can change the outcome of presidential elections? The 2008 election
cycle
starts in 2005, maybe earlier as candidates start rallying people for
the
primary elections. Right now is probably too late to change the 2008
elections,
but you still have influence over it. You can still choose from about a
dozen people
to support in the upcomming primary elections.

It doesn't matter which figurehead you vote to office, they are all
trapped and can do nothing else. Countries work the same as those on
the personal level. They must all work to increase the possessions of
their country or risk being trampled and taken over by their
competitors who are doing the same.


It isn't that you can't change an election, it is that people think
they can't change the
election by 2008 cause they don't want to work for it. Of course you
can't
change the polls by November 2008, your only choice there is the
Democrat or
the Republican.

Those are choices? Democrat or Republican. Two sides of the same
coin.
Who is outside of the coin? There is nobody. The coin rules us.


But right *now*, now is the time when the elections get decided.

Another case: Businesses and their products. Don't like Microsoft's
products?
Then make your own! Don't like what Microsoft does with your money?
Don't
buy? Use a Mac! Use Linux. Build your own OS. Use BSD, or BeOS.

Don't like Intel? Use any other chip, MIPS, or those PowerPC chips.

Don't like any of them? Don't use a computer. Quite simple, isn't it?

Or maybe, you can build your own architecture.

You know very well one can't build their own for everything they need
or want. It doesn't matter which company I choose, it's all in the
same system. It's the *system* that I don't like.


You only rely on computers because you rely on them. Amish folk seem to
work
well without them, why can't you?

Amish/Mennonites are trapped in the same system, though to a lesser
extent. But forget about joining them, these are closed societies who
don't value advancement. Their general philosophy is a good one, just
eliminate the religion, discard their disdain for technology and expand
influence beyond crops and homes to all things and you got an almost
perfect society.


Spending too much time making your OS that you can't go to work? Get a
business license and sell your OS. Release it as Open Source, GPL, BSD,
whatever you want. Build off of Linux or BSD.

Sell it to the hair-cutter down the street who is pissed off because
Microsoft
doesn't make any products, and IBM and other companies don't make
programs
for store clerks. Use Linux as a base as the guys at TVO did and make
specialized
fast running software for him on a custom version of Linux. (or BSD if
you don't like
the Linux code/license) Hell, do it with Menuet OS and Fasm cause you
guys are
such assembly gurus.

These are all things you can do, yet none of them change the system.
Some, like the open source movement put little dings but that's about
all.

Because it is specialized, you can make a hardware driver that sends
radio waves to little gizmos that get set off upto a mile away and tell
the
people when the hair-cuttery is empty so they can come in and get their
hair
cut right away.

Wow.

And no, you don't have to do it with a hair cutter. Ski-shop owner
keeps
getting his computers wet and they keep dieing. Make a specilized
computer
that works underwater for him that does the above. Etc. Etc.

Maybe I could. What would I have to do? Purchase parts manufactured
by others, assemble them and then what? Give it away for free? Nope,
I would have to charge the Ski-shop owner so I can increase my master
status.
Now, after I have done so, the guy that was selling all the computers
to the Ski-shop owner will lose out because the shop owner doesn't have
to buy as many computers any more. My invention increased my
'ownership' at the cost of someone elses.


Basically:
My respect goes to the business owners, who worked their butts
off changing the world while your "hobbiests" were too busy
complaining.

--Dragontamer

Chances are those business owers are also hobbiests. I too have a
business in which I viciously compete with others, I'm a "little
master" trapped somewhere in the system providing for myself and my
family. Yet I recognize the system for what it is. I know I've driven
at least 2 other families into poverty because I did a better job. My
competitors would like nothing better than to see my family in poverty
and work year round to do so (perhaps without consciously realizing
this).

These are the values we have been raised on. Helping humanity for us
is a secondary thing, the primary purpose is to increase our own
ownership.
Those business men you mention would have done nothing if there was no
monetary gain in it for them.

There are enough resources and technology on this planet right now to
provide everyone with food, shelter, health and education, while still
allowing them plenty of spare time from work to do other things they
like (spend time with family, hobbies, work on inventions, etc). But
such will never be a reality in the system we are trapped in. The
ultimate goal of the current system is to have one master who ownes
everything, so society has found a certain 'equilibrium' in the
middle... at the cost of our humanity.

-sevag.k
www.geocities.com/kahlinor

.