Re: When caveman Uhg invented fire

Ick... google is being weird... sorry in advance if this is a double
post.

sevagK wrote:
Dragontamer wrote:
your point, but it forces you to see Business owners and other leaders
in the world as ultimate evil.

There is no such thing as 'evil,' either by choice or necessity, they
have been drawn into a damaging system. The business owner is in
competition with limited resources with other 'owners' and they will do
anything to increase their ownership, even if it means destroying
someone else's means of living. In short, they (we) are like all the
other animals and plant life on this planet.

You don't need to destroy other people's means of living to
be a business owner.

Be a farmer for example. Make enough food for yourself, and sell some
so you can pay your taxes, phone bills, and whatever other luxury items
you need.

Your entire point falls on this: that there is no "choice" in life.

And that is too sad and pessimistic a choice for me to see.

There really is no choice. We are trapped by genetics which has forced
us to create a particular system... one designed on greed. Those who
are more evolved see this, but they are unable to do anything about it
because they are already trapped with no way out... well a couple ways
out but I'll get to those.

And we are also trapped to live with gravity. That doesn't stop us from
jumping
to the moon.

If you
don't like
being someone's "slave" for a living, then become a business owner.

Become a "little master," yes. I already did that. But even then,
"little masters" are slaves to all the bigger "masters," but since they
own more things than even smaller "masters" they are to a sence,
content with the degradity of humanity.

But even the smallest "ownership" makes one a slave. They become a
slave to their possessions and must protect them. Their ownership of
anything is based on the thread of illusion: their ownership must be
legally recognized by society. When that illusion collapses, they get
their heads chopped off by a revolt of slaves (and "little masters").

Slaves don't got a choice in their life.

Any "slave" can become the master. That by very definition, makes them
not a slave, but equal to their master.

Bill Gates
started somewhere, McDonalds started somewhere. And if you think that
there is only one way to make money, you are sooooo dead wrong. Most
people
are so intent on making inventions (aka, new computer programs) that
they
see that as the only way of making money.

Yes, and they all are trapped in the system as they have been raised by
false values. Their motivation for invention is not for the
advancement of humanity, but for the advancement of their ownership.

I take it that you've never heard of the Red Cross?

Quite the contrary for them. It is illegal for the Red Cross to advance
their
ownership. Seem to do quite well as an organization though.

Case in point: you can always say no. You never have to accept a job
today,

Right, what's the alternative? Follow Jesus into poverty. Give away
everything you own and go to the gutter. Some fates are worse than
being "little masters."

But even this is not always choice. If you think so you are wrong.
Many have families to support. They *have* to work at whatever shitty
job they have found to provide food, shelter, health care, etc. There
is no escaping the system for most.

It was their choice to make a family. They live with their choices. Of
course
we live with our choices... else we wouldn't be living. With exception
of maybe
rape victims, you have a choice whether you want a family or not, but
that is a
crime issue.

Anyway, if you really want to go into poverty and live as a bum the
rest of your
life, it is your choice. Whats so wrong with being a bum? Stray away
from alcohol
and drugs, and wander around and be friendly to people, can't be too
bad. Jack
London did it for a good period of his life.

Anyway, alternatives:

1. Become a business owner
1.5 Make a public-works company, build roads, hospitals, etc. etc.
Rent-a-cop for neighborhoods, etc. etc.
2. Create non-profit organization.
3. Create a new society, a commune if you will, like the Amish but
"better"
4. Be a bum. Aka: Explore the world PS: hide from the police.
5. Be a farmer.
6. Become a religious leader.
7. Join the army
8. Be one of those "survivors". Find a deserted island, and make it
your home.
Some people do this for years at a time for the hell of it. The forests
work well
also.
9. Join a non-profit organization
10. Work for the government. Be a teacher, firefighter, policeman, etc.
etc.


you don't have to join a union, you can vote for someone else if you
don't like
anyone.

Anyone you vote for is also trapped in the system. From whom do they
get funding for their election campaigns? Follow the stink of money
and you will find "big masters" looking to increase their ownership.

And those "masters" worked their butts off to get in that position. It
isn't
as if they were born with it, unless their parents worked their butts
off too.

Frankly speaking: this "hobbiest" you talk about is simply a lazy bum
who "wants"
to change the world, but can't see the world as anything else. He is
scared
to work. Either that, or blinded by his pessimistic views of the world.

No my friend. The hobbiest is often a working "master" of some level,
and works on his hobby on his spare time. He recognizes his humanity
and wants to change the world, but realizes there is no way so he
contributes to make it better in whatever small way he can. Sounds
more like optimizm to me.

I dunno, you seem to be complaining about simple truths. What else
am I supposed to assume?

Of course, if the hobbiest always complains like this, what else to
assume :-p

Case in point: don't like presidential candidates? Do you know how
*long* you
can change the outcome of presidential elections? The 2008 election
cycle
starts in 2005, maybe earlier as candidates start rallying people for
the
primary elections. Right now is probably too late to change the 2008
elections,
but you still have influence over it. You can still choose from about a
dozen people
to support in the upcomming primary elections.

It doesn't matter which figurehead you vote to office, they are all
trapped and can do nothing else. Countries work the same as those on
the personal level. They must all work to increase the possessions of
their country or risk being trampled and taken over by their
competitors who are doing the same.

So find someone who isn't a figurehead, give him control of the country
and then have him change it.

It isn't that you can't change an election, it is that people think
they can't change the
election by 2008 cause they don't want to work for it. Of course you
can't
change the polls by November 2008, your only choice there is the
Democrat or
the Republican.

Those are choices? Democrat or Republican. Two sides of the same
coin.
Who is outside of the coin? There is nobody. The coin rules us.

It is called primary elections. Some 12 possible candidates out
there right now, at least, for both parties.

If you don't wanna do anything till come November, thats your fault,
not
the "system"

But right *now*, now is the time when the elections get decided.

Another case: Businesses and their products. Don't like Microsoft's
products?
Then make your own! Don't like what Microsoft does with your money?
Don't
buy? Use a Mac! Use Linux. Build your own OS. Use BSD, or BeOS.

Don't like Intel? Use any other chip, MIPS, or those PowerPC chips.

Don't like any of them? Don't use a computer. Quite simple, isn't it?

Or maybe, you can build your own architecture.

You know very well one can't build their own for everything they need
or want. It doesn't matter which company I choose, it's all in the
same system. It's the *system* that I don't like.

Do you have plans for a better system? Then make one.

You only rely on computers because you rely on them. Amish folk seem to
work
well without them, why can't you?

Amish/Mennonites are trapped in the same system, though to a lesser
extent. But forget about joining them, these are closed societies who
don't value advancement. Their general philosophy is a good one, just
eliminate the religion, discard their disdain for technology and expand
influence beyond crops and homes to all things and you got an almost
perfect society.

Then get your friends, and convince them to join you.

Whats his name convinced some 50 people to commit suicide with him.

And I bet it is a lot easier to convince 50 people to come to a better
society
than it is to convince the same 50 people to commit suicide with you.

The Amish had to start somewhere. It isn't as if they just appeared out
of the blue one day.

And no, you don't have to do it with a hair cutter. Ski-shop owner
keeps
getting his computers wet and they keep dieing. Make a specilized
computer
that works underwater for him that does the above. Etc. Etc.

Maybe I could. What would I have to do? Purchase parts manufactured
by others, assemble them and then what? Give it away for free? Nope,
I would have to charge the Ski-shop owner so I can increase my master
status.
Now, after I have done so, the guy that was selling all the computers
to the Ski-shop owner will lose out because the shop owner doesn't have
to buy as many computers any more. My invention increased my
'ownership' at the cost of someone elses.

"Master Status"???

Then charge him less. Goodness. Don't make a profit if you don't want
to.

As for the other guy: he'll live. Hershey went bankrupt like, 12 times
before
making his chocolate company. And that was back when there were true
"master vs slave" relationships, lack of minimum wages, no social
security,
a crap stock market, no insurance on your banks, no medicare, etc. etc.

Basically:
My respect goes to the business owners, who worked their butts
off changing the world while your "hobbiests" were too busy
complaining.

--Dragontamer

Chances are those business owers are also hobbiests. I too have a
business in which I viciously compete with others, I'm a "little
master" trapped somewhere in the system providing for myself and my
family. Yet I recognize the system for what it is. I know I've driven
at least 2 other families into poverty because I did a better job. My
competitors would like nothing better than to see my family in poverty
and work year round to do so (perhaps without consciously realizing
this).

These are the values we have been raised on. Helping humanity for us
is a secondary thing, the primary purpose is to increase our own
ownership.
Those business men you mention would have done nothing if there was no
monetary gain in it for them.

Such as Hershey, who got rid of bulldozers and hired 40 men in their
place
during the great depression?

Or Carnegie who gave away some $350,695,653 before he died?
(and then the last few dozen million when he died)

There are enough resources and technology on this planet right now to
provide everyone with food, shelter, health and education, while still
allowing them plenty of spare time from work to do other things they
like (spend time with family, hobbies, work on inventions, etc). But
such will never be a reality in the system we are trapped in. The
ultimate goal of the current system is to have one master who ownes
everything, so society has found a certain 'equilibrium' in the
middle... at the cost of our humanity.

Again, I dislike your "master vs slave" analogy. You assume "slaves"
have no choice.
And if slaves do have a choice, they aren't slaves by a long shot :-p

Anyway, I point again to the alternatives at the top of my post, most
of this is covered
there.

--Dragontamer

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