Re: .EXE -> .ASM -> .EXE

"Again, I think you missed the point. If they were really happy with
HLA, why would they even come you your forum? You can't draw
conclusions about how happy or unhappy people are with HLA by looking
only at those who've abandoned HLA for a different assembler (e.g., by
becoming RosAsm users). That's like saying everyone *loves* HLA because
all the people on the AoAProgramming list are so fond of the product. "

?

No..that´s the point..They were not "really happy" with HLA..But the
opposite. The majority that have complains are begginners that tries
the product after a couple of weeks. In general, 2 weeks or so before
they start complaining, and get confused about assembly.

Experienced programmers don´t need that amount time. They said the
very same thing about a couple of days using it.

AoA has nothing to do with HLA. I mean, many users (begginers or not),
dispited having different opinions about the Book (many don´t like,
some like parts of it), i´m refering to HLA and not AoA. When they try
it, they just gave up after a while.

About books, many chooses to buy or get some from Peter Norton or Paul
Carter, for example, instead having to strugle understanding what you
wrote. Since i don´t like to discuss this kind of subjects, because
even not liking AoA i do appreciate your effords in concatenate the
work already done by assembly authors, and tend to keep away of
personal opinions about books. The mainly thing i´m interested is when
someone keeps asking several times the same problem because or they
didn´t understood the book, or they got totally confused about HLA, or
when they confuses assembly with C.

Sure i guess that everybody knows that the book is biased in other
people works...Btw... as many literaure, book authors usually needs
other people works to make comments, or develop their own
documentation. There is nothing that bad about it, specially quoting
known authors, or the most important, is provide the biography from the
ones you biased your.

I didn´t read AoA, but i presume you did inserted a biography of the
other programmers you biased to make it, right ?


"What about that beginner whom you're talking about? And forgive me,
but I've been to the RosAsm board and there is *definite* prejudice
there. Maybe your board is different, but at the official board, that's
not the case."

Where is the link for it ? Don´t rememeber seeing before any user
asking things about HLA. But if you provide the link it would be good
to see what was the post all about. I actually don´t remember now of
one like that on a serious issue about HLA.

The few ones that posted where jokes (Actually there was only one post
on that way if i recall well). Like one from Evil_Donkey. A bad taste
joke btw, but..oh well... it happens :)

Just use the serach engine on the board and seek for HLA strings to you
see that this don´t happens on the way you are speaking. Even on
Evil_Donkey, his post was not removed, although, personally i prefered
that it would be, but we choose to only lock the thread to avoid
flamings.

This is not the same that i see happening in asm board where i saw even
my posts being edited with no reason, but... i don´t care with that at
all. I have no fault if a so called moderator edits randomnly his users
posts without warning, etc... Since i know the guys from years, and
many of them i do like and respect, i just keep silently to avoid
causing disturbs.


"You mean, there's no one there to help them with their problems, but
rather to direct them to RosAsm? Hmm... I wonder what the problem with
this picture is? "

Distorting what i said won´t make HLA looks better. Stops doing this
because it is really ridiculous.

"Look, there is no question that a person who wants nothing to do with
HLLs may find HLA's syntax not to their liking. That's fine. The number
of such people is exceeedingly small when you consider the number of
programmers in the world. You, the NASM crowd, the FASM crowd, etc.,
can have all those people. I don't really care. My goal is to teach
beginners, particularly University students, assembly language
programming. And most of those *do* know a HLL like C/C++ or Java and
don't have a problem with the fact that HLA's syntax is similar to the
languages they already know. You can appeal to the elitists who don't
want to have anything to do with HLLs, you're welcome to that crowd.
I'm more interested in reaching the average person who, for whatever
reason, needs to learn assembly language. HLA appeals to the larger
crowd. It won't appeal to everyone, no product can, but HLA does reach
a larger crowd. "

Kinda agree..As long as this large crowd do really learn something, and
have understanging enough to work and see by their own eyes how to make
their applications.

The main problem i see with HLA is...in so many years you wrote it..i
never saw one single application written on it. (Except that game..i
don´t remember the name of it).

I do think it would be much more an improvement you write an assembler,
i mean, making HLA his own assembler and linker, dispites the weird
syntax (C like style, i mean). So far i didn´t understood why you
didn´t make HLA with HLA, or even why you refuse to make it an
assembler and a linker.

"I've said this all along. So get Rene under control and things will
improve dramatically. The ball is in the RosAsm team's court, so to
speak. In the past, you've asked me to lay off Rene and things would
get better. I did as you requested and they did *not* get better.
Sorry, I won't make that mistake again. If you want things to get cool
and to start supporting assembly language in a friendlier fashion, get
Rene under control. If you can't get him under control, don't complain
to me about my behavior. "

I´m not René's father to get him under control. I consider him a
friend that´s all.

The point is i don´t make generalizations when talking about HLA, but
you do when atack RosAsm, and mislead begginers "forgetting" that
RosAsm is a OpenSource project with other developers as well, and you
have a personal ego problem and a personal issue with René.

As René always said.. he is attacking _you_ and vice-versa... The
difference is that your "forget" that the project have other users that
have nothing to do with your ego problems and works in RosAsm, and also
works with other assemblers or also helps other people no matter what
assembler they uses.

This is so ridiculous as if you had actually other developers working
on HLA, that were really doing something good with it and/or tries to
bring more tools for the whole assembly community, and i starts
attacking them randomly just because i don´t like you or have some
sort of personal problem etc..

"That's true everywhere. But I've yet to see a demonstration that
assembly language, any assembler, any development system involving
assembly language, is universally better than the HLLs. Preaching that
everything should be written in assembly language is like preaching
that you can build a house with nothing more than a crowbar and a pair
of pliers. For some jobs, the crowbar or the pair of pliers are the
right tools. They are not the right tool for every job. Just like
assembly language isn't the right tool for every job. As soon as you
guys stop preaching this, you might find that people take you a little
more seriously. And as soon as your tools provide the ability to
interact with other tools (such as the ability to link with code from a
HLL compiler), people will begin to take your product more seriously.
Right now, you've got a tool that's suitable only for hacking (and I
use that term in the "unprofessional programmer" sense), it is not
suitable for wide use as a serious application development tool. "

Again, pls...don´t distort what i´m saying..Is my english that bad ?
kkkkkk

I didn´t said or have the intention to get the alusion that
_everybody_ shoudl use assembly. This is really utopic, unfortunatelly.

What i said is only to provide better alternatives on the market
that´s all.

What you seems to be doing is somethign kind of contradictory...
Because you seems to be "preaching" against assembly, and the one who
is an assembly "author" is you. This seems much contradictory to me. An
assembly author who don´t wills that assembly have a better vieweing
of other people, or a larger usage. This is new for me :)

I always thought that _at least- you would be the 1st one to want to
see and be positive enough to see asseml.y language growing. Since you
are not...why did you lost your time writting a book in assembly at the
1st Place ? if you don´t believe about the capability of the language,
neither that people can be capable enough to start learning and using
assembly on a much larger scale, what are you purposes writting a book,
if it´s "soul" is not focused to develop the language on a market
point of view ?

What is the purpose writting a book if you don´t actually believe in
what you have written ? You could write thenm a Book for C, if you will
that Assembly be always "behind the scenes". It would make way more
sense.

"you've got a tool that's suitable only for hacking (and I use that
term in the "unprofessional programmer" sense), it is not suitable for
wide use as a serious application development tool."

Well.. Thanks for enlighting your usage of "hacking'..but..
unprofessional is not what is actually happening. Sure, the IDE tool is
still not entirelly aimed by beginners, we are working on that slowly.
But as opposed it is starting to be focused for professional
programming, at least in my part with a couple of things i´m doing for
some companies and programmers using RosAsm as an alternative to fit
their purposes. I´m not talking in vain, and it is the early beginning
of what it has being done.

But... We don´t have the tendence nor the needs to keep saying out
loud propaganda issues about the product. People who wants to use
RosAsm professionally are using it, as well as people who wants to use
Fasm professionally will use.

Competing _at the moment_ with HLLs is really a long distance to walk,
but the steps are being made on that direction, and the perspectives
are not _at all_ that bad. Too bad that you as an assembly authour
don´t believe on the things you write. It would be much of a
improvement if you have really some beliefs on that to be able to fully
give any support focused on serious and professional assembly
programming.


"And you honestly think that RosAsm is going to solve all the problems
for which Delphi is suited? I think not. Good luck convincing those
business owners of that. All you'll really manage to do by pushing
assembly/RosAsm onto such people is give assembly language an even
worse name than it already has."

Not all problems..but many of them that can be fixed.

And about giving assembly language a worst name, i would do a better
job doing that if i decided to write a Book on assembly and didn´t
believe in one single word of what i had written in terms of improving
the language, don´t you think ?

"You really don't understand how a linker works, do you? Just so you
know, a linker will only include those object modules that the
application uses. It does *not* include *all* the code in the library
into your application. No wonder you think LIBs are bad; you're
operating under a serious misconception here. "

? Of course they includes one single Object that is being used. But
some objects have several uneeded sections, and the so called
"organization" is not happens all the time. Sure, it won´t include
sectinos that belongs only to Object files and are not included on the
PE, but the internal organization of the raw data inside a object file
is a must.

What does helps identifying the functionality of a lib file if i can´t
"see' how they works ? The LibScanner is a part of a huge
identification project and it´s usage fits to all the infos that are
currently dumped by it.

Again.._if_ at then end of this work we find reasons to make any sort
of linking, no problem in doing it some way or another.

The scanner is for libraries and objects in general, not only Coff
objects... Coff objects are the ones that are currently being
scanned..two hands only to work on that...Later....teh same will be
made for Object pascal and OMF libraries..but not so soon..This will be
another huge thing to do.


About your GAS idea...i don´t know... didn´t saw yet the output of it
to make an opinion. It would be good to see one thought.

Best Regards,

Guga

.

Relevant Pages

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