Re: HAY RATCH, wanna argue republican neo-con dogma ?

hutch-- wrote:
1. Bush lied to start a war.
2. Young Americans are still dying for no purpose at all in sh*tholes
like Afghanistan and Iraq.
3. Funding two unwinnable wars has turned the US economy into a
shambles.
4. The level of foreign financial debt is compromising US security
with its massive debt to China and Japan.


1. Bush lied to start a war.


1:(a) Plamegate. Niger yellowcake etc ....
1:(b) 1989 CIA evidence on gassed Kurds.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/110107Kurds.htm Watch
the video of Stephen Pelletiere.
1:(c) UN weapon inspections under the control of Hans Blix proved NO
WMDs.

Bush and his cronies LIED to start a war and the proof is there to
back it up.

In order to "prove" that Bush "lied", as opposed to being massively, astonishingly "mistaken", we would have to get inside his "mind". Feel free - last guy that tried it is accepting visitors Thursday afternoons and Saturdays.

2. Young Americans are still dying for no purpose at all in sh*tholes
like Afghanistan and Iraq.

Over 3300 young Americans dead in Iraq, 25000 more seriously injured
in two was that are already lost. They have been injured and have died
in combat for no purpose.

I don't think there's any argument that young Americans are dying - at an accellerating rate (in Afghanistan, too, if no one's noticed). How do we prove/disprove that it is for "no purpose"? If the purpose is to fill the coffers of Bechtel/Haliburton/Fluor/SAIC, is that "no purpose"?

In Afghasnistan they chased out the Taliban once, thereby allowing
women could go to school again,

Proof required.

You want proof that "they" chased the Taliban out? Or that this alloed women to go to school again? ("again" ???)

and gave the people a chance to govern themselves instead of being
under the control of a religious theocracy.

Proof required.

We probably need some definition of "govern themselves" before we can come up with any (dis)proof. It appears that they can govern themselves as long as we say it's okay. It appears that a great number of 'em, probably a majority, *prefer" a religious theocracy (is there another kind?) - perhaps not as strict as the Taliban. Their religion more-or-less requires it, and they seem quite serious about their religion.

Imagine the consequences of bringing "democracy" to Saudi Arabia and/or Egypt! "Bringing democracy to the Middle East" may sound good if you say it quick, but it isn't something that would be in our best interest to *do*.

In Iraq they got rid of Sadamn for good, and gave the people a chance
to make something of their country.

Proof required.

You doubt that Saddam is gone? I'm sure Google will turn up the video - of course, it could easily be faked. (we *have* seen movies, right? *** "hung", we could make a video of him being *disintegrated*!) Proof that this barbaric act actually gave the people "a chance to make something of their country"... Well they *are* "making something" (a mess) out of their country, I guess...

Too bad they seem more interested in settling old scores by killing
each other, and anyone else trying to stop them from doing so instead
of cooperating to form a government.

Proof required.

Proof that it's "too bad"? Proof that they're killing each other? Proof that it's because of "old scores"? *Some* of the violence is "resistance vs occupiers and collaborators", *some* of it is "sect vs sect". Is this really about "old scores", or is it about cultural and economic issues? Are Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland in conflict over theology?

An observation: Sunnis would seem to have the most to lose from a "fractured" Iraq. Yet Sunnis seem to be resisting the formation of a "unified" government. WTF is going on there???

3. Funding two unwinnable wars has turned the US economy into a
shambles.

A laughable observation. I live here and I sure don't see any
financial shambles. Looking at too many far-left websites, Hutch?

Naval introspecting again Ratch,

He's been looking inside ships??? :)

try reading 2 BILLION USD$ a week on
2 unwinnable wars.

That's pretty bad, wasting all that money in Iraq. But wait a minute, where is that money actually being spent? Some of it is bleeding into Iraq, but most of it winds up in "American" hands. It is a mere "transfer" of funds - from "taxpayer" hands into private (donor?) hands.

This doesn't sound like it would be very good for "the economy", but Ratch is right - it's hard to see any ill effects if you live here. *Some* ill effects, perhaps... it seems to me that the "working poor" (*my* friends) are having a slightly tougher time of it. It certainly isn't getting any easier. But I don't see anything "catastrophic". (this does not address possible/probable long-term effects)

We need to know exactly what Hutch means by "a shambles". Then we can see if "the economy" fits this definition or not. Then perhaps we can address "why" this is so, or not. Unlike the other points, which are somewhat speculative, or "a matter of opinion", this might be something we can sink our teeth into. (if we can agree on what we're talking about...)

4. The level of foreign financial debt is compromising US security
with its massive debt to China and Japan.

It was at a high level long before the Iraq invasion,

Its a lot higher now.

and it would

probably still be high without the invasian. True, that is not a good
thing, but China and Japan would be in a bad situation if the US could not
pay them back on time.

I dunno... Massive debt to Japan (didn't we defeat them in a war, not too long ago?) and China (aren't they a Communist country?) seems to me like a "new" thing, and a strange thing! Why are we borrowing money from *them*, and how come they're lending it to *us*? Seems like only yesterday that I was being urged to eat my vegetables because "children are starving in China." Now they're lending us hundreds of billions??? How? Why?

Does it compromise our security? If we don't pay 'em back, will they invade? What do we owe 'em, anyway? Dollars? (eat all you want, we can print more) Gold? (we're fucked!) Zeros and ones? (even easier than dollars) Will they slap a lien on the White House? Padlock it and throw Hillary onto the street? Is this a little like a bank loaning money to the Mafia, or the Crips? Does this compromise *our* security or *theirs*???

When the bill collector comes to the house,
he knocks and he bangs at the door.
We set him right down in the middle of the house,
and he don't come back no more.
- "The Railroad Runs Through The Middle of The House"

Like the early 70s gold default ?

Tell us about the early '70s gold default (Grandpa...). I Think I know what you mean - younger readers may not. Good conservative Republican president Nixon slapped on national wage/price/rent controls (no one paid much attention, that I could see). He decoupled the dollar from gold - prior to that the price of gold was $35/oz. period. That was the definition of "dollar". He made it legal for Americans to own gold - prior to that, it was illegal. (is this constitutional???) The "price" of gold skyrocketed - that is, the "worth" of the dollar plummeted. But in terms of how the "average Joe" lived, I didn't see much difference. After a while, the wage/price/rent controls went away. (no one seemed to notice) WTF happened there??? I would have expected such "cataclysmic" events to have grown men begging for food on the streets - or perhaps all living in mansions, if it was a Good Thing. Or *something*! But the rich get richer and the poor stay poor - like always...

What did it look like from "down there"?

And still Japan and China allow the US credit. Do
they think they will be payed off after all?

All bad things come to an end, have you converted your savings to
Euros yet ?

The smugness of the EuroCommies amuses the *hell* out of me!

Time to deliver some proof Ratch, I don't give a flying PHUK how much
mess you make in ALA.

As long as he doesn't mess up *your* board. Must be nice to be King. :)

Best,
Frank

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