Re: Rene can't handle AoA's Success


randyhyde wrote:

Sure, only those who understood what they read in the CPU manuals
get a chance to join in the game, regardless if they also read
Knuth, Pispalis, Dunteman, and/or similar books.

And they have a much greater chance of understanding what's in the CPU
manuals if they first read a book like AoA. That's the bottom line,
whether you like it or not.

That's just what 'you' believe in.

Randy's attempt to teach newbies will fail because his prerequisites
are HLL-knowledge which is a not required detour for true ASM coders.

It may not be a "required detour", but it is a very good one to make.

Call it whatsoever it is a detour.

You may excel at knowing what each machine instruction does on a micro
level, but I've seen your code samples around here and from a
*programmer's* point of view, they're not something to be especially
proud of. Oh, you count the cycles *real well*, so that your lousy
algorithms and terrible data structures consume as few cycles as
possible.

Your readability argument again ?
You attack things like KESYS algos/data structures you never saw ?

In the meantime, a student in a HLL programming course,
using techniques they've learned there, write HLL code that compiles
to something that is better than what you've written.

Perhaps, but ONLY in terms of 'your' demands on maintainability
and readability, but never ever in terms of (size/speed) performance.

You say "Randies [sic] attempt to teach newbies will fail..." yet
there is nothing "Randies" about this.

:) correction: "Randy's"

When I was in *elementary* school, the universities were teaching
HLLs before assembly language.

And you think this meanwhile also anchient order have to last forever.

If you consider "true assembly programmers" to be the people such as
yourself out in the world -- self-taught, undisciplined programmers --

:) disciplined to what? to Your personal view of the universe ?
or would it be more 'discipliened' to follow all the C-convention ?

well, okay. But despite the small number of people such as yourself
(and your apprentices who "still make money writing low-level code")
who've figured out what the machine instructions do, in the real world
(using tests to measure knowledge),

Who do you think work for all the single chip market
(consumer electronics,phones,toys,household equipment,...)
where engineers have to design the hardware(CPU) 'and' the program,
C-programmers ? :):):)

I'll guarantee you that the average person will learn assembly language
*much* better and be able to produce far more sophisticated programs
if they first learn a HLL.

What got that to do wiht each other ?
Complex programming needs detailed knowledge of the matter, that's it.
Granted: HLL-coders might use prepared C-libs and don't care the 'how',
but prebuilt code modules are also available for plain ASM.

Sadly (and it's obvious in this newsgroup whenever a self-taught
programmer posts some code), programmers who learn assembly language
as their only (or first) programming language tend to exhibit some
*very bad* programming habits.

Yes 'very bad' for your limited ability to read code which looks
different to all you ever learned.

It's people like this who give assembly language a bad name.

No, it's the alive creativity which makes ASM interesting.
It's the boring 'traditional' HLL-styled coding which seems to
be burned in your brain, makes ASM look useless.

__
wolfgang




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Relevant Pages

  • Re: Rene cant handle AoAs Success
    ... They're willing risk a *lot* of money publishing books like AoA ... that they have published dozens of x86 assembly language books over ... There is no question that I could have written my code in a HLL like C ... The thing they share in common is "programming". ...
    (alt.lang.asm)
  • Re: MSIL or Bytecode taught instead of ASM
    ... "to the general programming community"?... ... heavily used programming languages (whether C, C++, or Java is most ... I think it is as practical to learn for modern college students ... ASM wouldn't be much more challenging. ...
    (comp.programming)
  • Re: assembly language and reverse engineering
    ... I've done some programming in a few languages in the past, ... Not much asm, and it's been a while, so I'd ... know that understanding assembly language is key, ... mov eax, ...
    (alt.lang.asm)
  • Re: a turbo assembly language
    ... >>that ASM is no more time consuming than an HLL. ... >of the programming SoftWares has gone wrong. ... language representation is, by definition, attempting to create an HLL. ...
    (alt.lang.asm)
  • The Great Debate
    ... > but ASM proved to be very cumbersome and unproductive, ... He did *not* say assembly language projects ... as structured programming grew in popularity). ... the *physics* was harder than the math. ...
    (alt.lang.asm)