Re: Looking for a book about C with special criteria

user923005 <dcorbit@xxxxxxxxx> writes:

On Mar 10, 10:12 pm, Richard <de...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Ben Pfaff <b...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
user923005 <dcor...@xxxxxxxxx> writes:

I taught C at Olympic College in Bremerton Washington, and several of
my students told me that I was the best teacher they ever had.

I have to say that your chapter in C Unleashed is one of the most
readable, and I wouldn't be surprised if you were a good teacher
in person as well.

Neither would I.

The point is that having read many books on programming over the years,
I still find it incredible that someone could recommend Knuth for a
nOOb or a 12-14 year old.

Still. If the planet would be a dull place if we were all to agree on
something like this I suppose.

I do not expect that TAOCP is the best starting point for everyone who
starts to program. I expect that it will work well for a large class

Clearly no one would expect any one text to be best for everyone.

of people. I tend to think in pictures and symbolically. Things like
case tools appeal to me greatly. For other people, they add little
value. If you ask ten people what their favorite movie is, I guess
that you will get ten answers. That does not mean that any answer is

Yes, yes. We all prefer different things.

better than the others, just that different things appeal to different
people. All other areas of interest will be similar. What appeals to

Yes. But lets not get too general here. We are talking about whether
Knuth is suitable for most nOObs. And as a seasoned programmer who has
used multiple languages in many environments I can give a reasoned
answer: No it isn't. It's way over the top for a nOOb.

Just to clarify : they are wonderful reference books and I have every
respect for the immortal Knuth.

one person may not appeal to another. I remember in my calculus class
when the instructor asked us if we wanted to see how the equations
were derived or to see some examples, the mathematics majors would ask
for derivations and the physics students wanted examples. It's not
surprising, considering where they eventually wanted to go with the
information.

I don't really see how this makes something as technical suitable as a
beginners programming text. It also sounds like a sound bite to be
honest with you.


The job of a teacher is to find the right buttons to push to get the
student excited. Once that happens, the rest of the class becomes

Yes. Obviously.

very easy because the students don't have to be pushed from that point
forward. When I first found the TAOCP series, I don't think I
personally could have been more excited if I had discovered a trunk of

It seems to me you are very much a minority. Maybe not on CLC. I am in a
minority in certain of my professional tendencies. However I am aware
which of my tendencies would not be appropriate for a lot of newer
recruits. My views are not "equally valid" when one considers the
greater good.

gold. On the other hand, I do realize that some people could consider
it chloroform in print. So if Knuth does not work for someone, I
suggest trying something else. If you are not sure if you will like

Sorry, but thats a bit obvious. One doesn't have to be a genius to see
that.

it, get it from the public library or nearby university library
first. If you give it an honest chance, I suspect it will rapidly

Are you really explaining how to use a library? :-;

grow on you, but that is only my guess and some people probably never
will like it.

I know it. I have used it. Nothing has changed my opinion. Once more, I
am qualified in CS. I can think of no task I have ever undertaken where
I needed to refer to it. Thats not to say I would not have been better
off doing so of course!


I think that the apparent difficulty level is greatly exaggerated due
to some people not being familiar with mathematical symbols. He

"some people"?

always explains what the math means in English along side of it
though, so you really don't have to be able to read the mathematical
notation (though it helps greatly to immediately grasp it if you do
like that sort of thing). I don't think you have to have above
average intelligence to glean a great deal of value from Knuth's work.

Rubbish. Knuth is famous for his writing style. It is incredibly
accurate but very, very pedantic and hard to "read". It is not a flowing
text like something like Expert C Programming. It is a rare person who
can "read" his books!


I think K&R2 is a good book to learn the C language from (but not how

Most good programmers do.

to program in C, which is something else). You can become familiar

Sorry? What is your problem with it? I certainly learnt how to program
in C from it. I didn't learn how to implement various sorts or hash
algorithms etc of course. But "program" yes. Most programmers never,
ever write their own sorts or hash functions. And if they do, its often
directly from a spec...using something like Knuth maybe....

with the grammar with a book like that, but it won't teach you what
the elements of a good program are. As alternatives to Knuth, I think
that Robert Sedgewick or Mark Allen Weiss' algorithm books are very
good as well, or "Introduction to Algorithms" by CLR will give many of
the same concepts as Knuth (though not with quite as much rigor). I
do agree that Knuth is not for everyone. But I also think that

Especially not nOObs IMO.

everyone should try it (if they have programming in mind for their
future). At worst, they'll get bored and lose an hour of time which
is about the same as any other book. But for some people, it is an
ideal learning instrument.

IMO-YMMV.
.