Re: OT 50 States was: OT: Hemlines

From: James J. Gavan (jjgavan_at_shaw.ca)
Date: 12/02/03 

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 03:04:25 GMT

Alistair Maclean wrote:

> >Truth is there was a great deal of to-ing and fro-ing between the northern
> >Irish and Scotland, (Picts and Scots).
>
> Scots not Picts. The Scots came from Ireland and crossed to Mull.
>

OK so I went in alphabetical sequence - what would a Sassenach know anyway <G>

>
> Ah-ha. The Keltai (mentioned by the ancient Greeks) was a generic term
> referring to anyone from the north of the alps. No identifiable group,
> even in Britain, identified themselves as Celts. The notion of the Celts
> is modern dating from the 18th century.

Maybe this group should be renamed 'Anything but COBOL'. I see where you're
coming from, but a quick dash downstairs to the basement, I found my Penguin
paperback ' The Celts' by a Nora Chadwick. Hell - I can have a memory lapse -
it was printed in 1972.

She's not on the same wavelength as you - that's where I got my original quote
from. Your word 'Keltai' is written as 'Keltoi' from Greek (KEATOi - with
appropriate Greek symbols). Known by that name from the 5th century, the
Romans referred to them as the Galli - later becoming Galatae in both Greek and
Roman writing.

She gives dates and details, consistently using the word 'Celt'; without again
reading her book in detail, for a summary, the Penguin Atlas of World History
Vol I, (1974). No reference to Keltai/Keltoi - but Celts with dates :-

- 496 - 396 - Ten years war with the Veii :-
:
Conquest and destruction of city (Veii). Roman advance to north now possible.

Celts gradually migrated from their homes on the upper Rhine and Danube into
France, Spain, the British Isles and southward along the Danube (La Tene
period).
Iron weapons, warlike aristocracy. Only priests could offer sacrifice and
decide legal questions - was the basis of the priesthood's great influence -
i.e., the Druids, (** which you and I recognize from the Isle of Anglesey and
Mount Snowdon in N. Wales **).

- 400 - Incursion of Celts into Italy, settlement of Po Valley

- 390 - First encounter with Romans at Clusium

- 387 - Sack of Rome by Gauls : beaten by the Celts led by their duke (=
Brennus) at the Allia; the 'Hellenic' city of Rome was taken and burned.
Receing+++ ransom, Celts withdrew with much booty. (380 - reconstruction of
Rome).

- 396 - Conquest of Veii by Romans and decay of Etrus(can) power in the Po
valley as a result of Celtic incursions.

- 298 - 290 (Roman) 3rd Samnite War - their opponents were a coalition of
Samnites, Etruscans, Celts, Sabines, Lucanians and Umbrians.

- 285 - 282 - Struggles with Celts - conquest (by Rome) of the territory of the
Gallic Sennones (Ager Gallica and Sena Gallica).

- 279 - Incursion of Celts (= Galtians) into Asia Minor - supported Nicomedes
who with their aid founded the Kingdom of Bythnia

- 275 - Pushed back into Galatia in Asia Minor by Antiochus I

Then the conglomerate Celtic history seems to dry up, more in line with the
'native bands' we are familiar with. Ms. Chadwick does classify the 'British'
Celts into two groups . (Unfortunately without wading back through the book,
I've lost the reference). She neglected to include the small Celtic enclave in
N.W. Spain, although she mentions the Bretons. Interestingly she refers to the
Manx population as being Celtic. I recall you mentioning the Isle of Man was
occupied by Vikings. (Perhaps she is categorizing Vikings as Celts as well ?)

She also has pictures of Celtic works of art - Saint-Goar on the Rhine,
Heidelberg, Czechoslovakia, Rome ('The Dying Gaul'), various U.K treasures,
finishing up with the Book of Kells.

Seems like they were a pretty busy bunch - even when they weren't in a punch-up
amongst themselves, (loike me Irish brethren, when they've had a jar or two !)

Jimmy

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