Re: OT: demise of COBOL WAS: Infinite Loops and Explicit Exits

From: Robert Wagner (spamblocker-robert_at_wagner.net)
Date: 12/06/04 

Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 21:21:08 GMT

On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 21:56:54 +1300, "Pete Dashwood"
<dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:

>
>"Robert Wagner" <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote in message
>news:iia7r05ancbggahq429pg0dkh9jr4va7uc@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 16:40:48 +1300, "Pete Dashwood"
>> <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:

>> WASHINGTON - Evidence gained by torture can be used by the U.S.
>> military in deciding whether to imprison a foreigner indefinitely at
>> Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as an enemy combatant, the government concedes.

>Robert, it is quite apparent that you are genuinely concerend about these
>issues.

Many Americans are. They don't know how to stop it.

>(I would be too, if my government was doing the things you describe. We have
>a known terrorist here who entered the country illegally, is wanted by
>Interpol and a dozen other states, and has been incarcerated without trial
>for just over a year now. He has been given access to lawyers, well wishers
>etc and is not confined in chains in a dungeon. There has never been any
>question of torture (mental or physical) yet there are demonstrations in
>Wellington (our Capital) for his release and the grant of refugee status.
>Why? Because it isn't the ""Kiwi" way to lock people up without due process.
>We require a "Fair Go" for EVERYONE. I'm sure in my own mind we would be a
>lot better off without this guy in our society, and so are many of his
>supporters, but it just "isn't a fair go...". Funny little country this. I
>can't help but love it, even though I know patriotism can cause wars...)

The purpose of torture is to get information, not to torment or punish
someone. (Remember, I used to be in the information gathering
business. :) It doesn't sound like this guy has secrets to hide, so
there'd be no reason for torture. Give him a fair hearing, then kick
him out. It should take days, not a year.

>The behaviours that Don and yourself have alluded to are certainly cause for
>concern. When the head of state takes absolute power it is time for the
>people to start thinking about changing the head of state.

They just had a chance, and they re-elected him. Next time: Hillary
vs. ??? Here's a clue:

 12.03.2004
The front page of USAToday's Fri/Sat/Sun issue is "Should the
Constitution be amended for Arnold?"
The resulting avalanche of hits took our website down. Having handled
5 million hits on this website a few weeks ago, we'll be fascinated to
find out how many visitors it took to take us down today. (We won't
know for a few days how many people checked AmendUs.org out.)

> When soldiers
>indulge in brutality using the need for information as an excuse, it is time
>to look at who is leading the soldiers. (I was a (at first reluctant)
>soldier. It is an honourable calling. Soldiers are not murderers or
>torturers, like terrorists.)

Some are. Our prisonerf interrogator was fired as a drill instructor
for being too sadistic. That's like firing an accountant for being too
conservative.

Actually, the worst torture is self-inflicted ... the fear of what
might happen. He understood that brilliantly. He cracked people in
hours, by detecting their weakness (everyone has at least one) and
issuing threats against it.

>When you can't tell the good guys from the bad
>guys any more it is a pretty fair bet you are losing the war.
>
>What to do about it?
>
>I know from my own experience in America that there are people there who
>will be as concerned about this as the rest of us. Surely there must be
>opposition to these measures. What of the Supreme Court? Is there no
>possible calling to answer for these actions? We have seen Congessional
>enquiries before. What if millions of people wrote to their Congressmen and
>demanded these practices be stopped? There must be right minded people even
>in the armed forces who are disgusted by this.

Neither the Supreme Court nor Congress has jurisdiction outside the
US. Right minded people are abandoning the administration. Three
high-level officials left last week, including the head of Homeland
Security.

>Are there no Senators or Congressmen who would act as a rallying point for
>putting in some checks and balances?
>
>The war against Terrorism is something that affects all of us. Strong
>measures are necessary.
>
>But if, in combating scum, we become scum, then the scum have won.

We're the ones trying to change the other side to be like us.

I'm not convinced Arabs planned the 9/11 attack. I think they were
fall guys, in the same way McVeigh and Oswald were set up as solitary
villians. There are too many inconsistancies in the official story.
For instance, cellphone calls from 30K feet are a physical
impossibility. Steel framed buildings do not collapse from the heat
produced by a kerosene fire .. especially the number seven building,
which wasn't even hit.

Who would plan such an event? Look at who benefitted. Certainly not
Arab countries.

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