Re: OT - "lie" vs "error"

Thanks for that.

I appreciate your examples of practical help to girls in the position of
unwanted pregnancy, and I can't imagine anyone objecting to that, or even to
them being given full information as to what their options are. (We have
organisations here that provide a similar service. I know personally of two
girls who decided to go full term because of the support they received; I
know one other who didn't. All of them are getting on with their lives OK.)

I think the focus has been about abortion, and that was why I posted the
chicken cult piece. You are right that killing a chicken is not the same as
killing a foetus, but that's not the point I was trying to make.

It comes down to whether religion (anybody's...) should be allowed to affect
the process of Law making.

I realise it is very hard for people with devout religious convictions to
NOT want their beliefs enshrined in Law; it is just that when we do that, we
stuff up the whole idea of freedom and democracy. And that eventually
impacts on the freedom to practise the very religion that was enshrined in
the Law.

The choice is simple, but making it is hard...

Which is more important? The right to live in freedom, or the tenets of the
religion to which I adhere?

Fortunately, society, being for the most part pragmatic, attempts to steer a
middle course and most of us enjoy freedom AND the right to practise our
respective religions. But that can ONLY be attained by separation of Church
and State.

And that is why we mustn't let any religious arguments affect our law
making, and why we MUST separate Church and State.

That was the whole point of the 'chicken cult' piece; it had nothing to do
with killing chickens or babies.

Pete.

Top Post no more below.

"LX-i" <lxi0007@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:a7dfc$4267165c$45491db9$5580@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
> > "LX-i" <lxi0007@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > news:c587a$4265ab93$45491db9$30003@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >>This is to all the folks who have written similar things (not just you,
> >>DD). I do not lobby for the criminalization of abortion because it is
> >>my religious belief - I lobby for it because it is the right, humane,
> >>and dignified thing to do. But no one wants to talk facts - all you
> >>(opposed) say is "YOU CAN'T SHOVE YOUR RELIGION DOWN OUR THROATS!!!!"
> >>or words to that effect.
> >
> > Daniel, I have never suggested you are shoving religion down my throat
in
> > discussing this. I attempted to discuss it in the previous post
regarding
> > the chicken cult in this thread, posted on the 19th, but you haven't
> > responded.
>
> I know - that's not the "similar things" I was talking about. You've
> been nothing but civilized. With the chicken cult - I just didn't know
> where to begin. Mandating that someone kill a chicken is different that
> mandating that they *not* kill their unborn children.
>
> > If you are lobbying for the criminalization of abortion (your post above
> > seems to contradict a previous position where you agreed it was OK to
let
> > the mother decide), then I would really like to hear your response to my
> > post. I would seriously disagree with the illegalization of abortion for
the
> > reasons I outlined there.
>
> Under the current law, yes, the mother can decide. It needs to be an
> informed decision - she needs to understand just exactly what is going
> on in there before she decides to cut it off.
>
> When I lived in Chattanooga, Tennessee, my wife and I were involved with
> an organization call "AAA Women's Services". (There's not much on their
> website, but it's http://www.aaawomen.org .) These folks set up across
> the street from the city abortion clinic, and bill themselves as a
> "crisis pregnancy center". They offer counseling, free ultrasounds, and
> education, as well as a post-abortion support group (more on that in a
> bit). Over 3/4 of the women who come in there, after seeing that baby
> growing in them, do not get abortions.
>
> But, AAA's work isn't done with the ultrasound. They offer assistance
> with housing, clothing, and medical care (with volunteers that will take
> the ladies around to prenatal and other appointments), along with
> parenting classes (if desired), to help these ladies prepare for the
> responsibility of rearing a child.
>
> There was a young Hispanic girl (we'll call her "L") who came from
> California to Chattanooga to get an abortion. (She just picked it at
> random.) My wife was her initial counselor, and when she decided to
> carry the child to term, we went into action. We took her to
> appointments - my wife helped her get on Medicaid (she more than
> qualified), and even helped her find a job (she was a car mechanic -
> needless to say, her time at that job was limited!).
>
> A few months into it, she called "T" (the father) back in CA and told
> him what she had done. He was so moved that he, well, moved! He came
> to Chattanooga, and together, they found an apartment. We helped him
> with his job search, and they went through parenting classes sponsored
> by AAA. When the baby was born, we helped them get everything set up.
> Just before I went into the Air Force, we sold them one of our cars at
> next to nothing, and T got his license.
>
> The last I heard from them, they were about to be married - their child
> was healthy, and they were doing great. This is but one example of the
> lives that were saved/changed because people were given the information
> that they needed to make an informed decision - and, there were people
> who thought the issue was important enough that they didn't just say
> "you shouldn't!". They let *you* make the decision, and then they
> supported you through it.
>
> This is where I *really* have a problem with the current-day Planned
> Parenthood-type groups. They don't want women to have the facts - just
> whip up the emotions about their rights, and get them to kill that
> child. But abortion is often worse than their pregnancy or childbirth.
> It's long, but a very detailed piece on post-abortion depression,
> along with other after-effect of abortion, can be found at
> http://www.vanderbilt.edu/SFL/post_abortion_depression.htm . This is
> also why post-abortion support groups like the ones AAA sponsors are so
> important as well.
>
> (The abortion clinic across the street? Seems they had lots of
> problems. Women encountering complications had to go to the hospital in
> a taxi, because the clinic wouldn't let an ambulance be seen pulling up
> in its parking lot. Their business dropped off dramatically. Then, a
> group of businessmen got together, and along with other folks, actually
> bought the clinic out from under the occupants. It's now the National
> Memorial for the Unborn - http://www.memorialfortheunborn.org .)
>
> Sure, I don't want abortion to be legal any more than I want murder to
> be legal. But, as we've seen with murder, just because it's illegal
> doesn't mean it won't happen. And, while the extent of my lobbying
> lately has been my voting (and CLC, which is going nowhere fast! ;> ),
> I believe that *the* key to dramatically reducing the rate of abortion
> is through education, on the facts of both what's inside them, and what
> abortion can do to them.
>
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
> ~ / \/ o ~ ~
> ~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
> ~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
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> ~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>



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