Re: Of mice and men

jce wrote: 
"Donald Tees" <donald_tees@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

[more than what appears but I snipped forgetting to mark that in here...sorry]


It is an open OS, that runs as a client/server model, full fledged multi-user system ... unix at the command line, with enough security that logged in as a normal user, I cannot change even another user's data, let alone the OS software (as with a virus)


This would depend on how well the sysadm (you or otherwise) and your users maintained their environment no?
This is no different to many environments OS - even windows. Your system is only as strong as its weakest point.


No, not really. Security does *NOT* depend on my users at all. They are not given the choice. It is not "voluntary", any more than bank security is voluntary by the customers. It is not even voluntary for me. The system will not work unless I log in, and there is no way to just hit "cancel" on the login screen. It will shake it's head, and refuse to work.

It is really nice, in fact, to be able to allow the grandkids to sit down and play with my machine. With their own account, and guest accounts set up, I no longer have to worry about someone else screwing my work tools up. In the past, I always had extra machines for that. And *I* do backup on those accounts. If they screw them up I just restore them.

Then, on top of that, you have a user logging in and using a GUI, browser, etc., in the local user space. That is the reason the security is so good ... if I log in as a user and erase everything I can find on the disk, I only harm my own account. 

Again, this is not wholly true.  It depends on ....see above.

There are many programs that have in the past been used to exploit Linux - programs running as "root" even though you are just a plebian user.

Sorry, but really true. I can give a user root access by giving them the root password, but they cannot "run as root" without it. And you cannot run as "george" without logging into george's account. You cannot run at all without logging in, anymore than you can use your bank card without a pin number.

If you ask to run a program that uses root privleges "as a plebian user" it will tell you that you do not have disk access. If you do not have the root password, you do not get access. Period.

I expect you could get a distribution with little or no security if you really want to, but I am not sure why you would want to. It would be a bit like buying a house and removing all the walls/doors/locks.


I'd be less inclined to comment if you stated that its "more automatically encouraged". Many distributions will force you to use a non admin account....but this could also be done in Windows etc etc....people just view windows as a "home" OS and most "home" users just don't want to deal with the fact that there are more than one way to protect yourself.


Your user ID does not change just because you do a CD command.

Directories and files under Linux are *owned* by a specific user ID, That relates to your login account, not to where you happen to be sitting on the disk. You might be able to CD to another user's account (IF and ONLY IF you have access access), but that does *not* mean you can write to it, nor does it mean you can read it. You must, for someone else to even see the directory, give others that access.

In fact, as root, I can set up a file on a user's area that *they* do not have access to. My guest accounts, for example, have add privleges on their desktops. They do not have change or delete privleges. I have to clean anything they place on their desktop off ... they cannot.

If you really try hard, and you happen to be sitting at the operator's console, and you are set up as the system administrator then yes, I think you could disable security(with a good deal of work). Actually, I am not sure I could disable it completely, I'd have to completely re-configure the entire machine, and re-design most of the setup. It would take me months, though I'm sure an expert could do it a lot faster.

I could also, if I happen to be sitting at the operators console, boot a different system and get at the disks. No system is "secure" if you are at the console booting it, including the bank's.

And it could *NOT* be done with windows without revising the entire disk system. The disk files in windows do not even *have* an owner associated with them, so limiting access to the file owner is rather difficult.

Windows is not set up as a multi-user machine. The files are not owned by anybody in the first place. They are automatically owned by the program running on the CPU at that particular moment. Who or what started that program is not even a consideration.


A lack of help is no different to a secret: "Documentation ranges from not too bad to "what?"."

I do like your post, it corresponds much to what I have found - and neither of us are (or pretend) to be experts so it's - if I may speak for you - a novices guide to crap that we've found starting on this which I think is good for other new starters. I am *amazed* at the level of growth and improvement over the last 5 years....

JCE


You make a *very* valid point regarding docs. The real problem is, I am finding, not so much the lack of docs as the lack of indexing. Everything is there, filed under some obscure name that only god knows. If you start at the beginning, and read 5000 pages, you have a fair chance of even finding it. Read 30,000 pages and you probably will. My problem is that I am getting old and grumpy, and both my eyes and patience are not what they use to be.

Donald


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Of mice and men
    ... >> This is no different to many environments OS - even windows. ... With their own account, and guest accounts set ... > root password, but they cannot "run as root" without it. ... > it will tell you that you do not have disk access. ...
    (comp.lang.cobol)
  • Re: File on disk- encrypted or not?
    ... Failing the whole concept of security. ... Okay, so assume he uses a floppy Linux distro, like Tom's Root Boot ... disk, or a bootable CD-based distro, like Knoppix, instead. ... data off of the platters directly to bypass the HDD password, ...
    (comp.os.linux.security)
  • Re: hi all..
    ... If you somehow had access to my account right now, ... install an effective key logger without root. ... Of course, if I have sudo ... the security of your system you should just reinstall. ...
    (Fedora)
  • Re: How to Configure Qmail on Fedora Core 1 Server
    ... since the user foo would not have root privledges. ... that account is cracked they still are restricted on privileges. ... The security issue with reading mail as root via pop3 or imap is the ...
    (Fedora)
  • Re: Choosing a distribution
    ... potentially be cracked and hence give the intruder root access. ... However, with sudo you can ... and with a root account you use a different password that now needs ... You're claiming "increased" security by use of a root ...
    (Ubuntu)