Re: OT: Katrina's Wrath
- From: Clark Morris <cfmtech@xxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 13:42:10 -0300
On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:52:41 -0500, LX-i <lxi0007@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>Lueko Willms wrote:
>>>> There are no material reasons not to save peoples lives, only the
>>>>incapacity of the capitalist society which is well able to bring shock
>>>>and awe and real destruction in all parts of the globe, conquer
>>>>countries, organize hundreds of thousands of soldiers to terrorize
>>>>people all around the world, but even then they can't create
>>>>conditions where human beings can live in peace and progress.
>>
>>
>> l> Government in this country has a limited function. Providing for the
>> l> defense of the land is probably the biggest one. Name for me one
>> l> other country that has given more to this Earth than the USA has over
>> l> the past 100 years. There's not one! Just because people don't heed
>> l> warnings (which, freedom being what it is, they can make that
>> l> choice)doesn't mean that it's still not the best place for peace and
>> l> progress.
>>
>>
>> If I wouldn't have known your ideas, I would have thought that
>> somebody is trying to make a bad cynical joke to show how much the USA
>> is a failed state.
>
>The USA is not a state - it is a voluntary collection of states. And,
>in all this, looking at the would/could/should scenarios, the *state* of
>Louisiana comes up as the one who shoulders the responsibility for many
>of the things that went wrong.
>
>> You can not seriously claim that the USA is a great state, bringing
>> racism, colonialism, wars, "shock and awe", i.e. terror, military
>> dicatorships, torture, and mass killings to the world, just to leave
>> each and every of its citizens helpless against the powers of nature.
>
>We're *all* helpless against the powers of nature - anyone who tells you
>otherwise is deluding themselves. Sure, we can create structures that
>*should* hold to certain forces, but few of even these structures could
>survive a direct hit from a tornado - and there's nowhere you can go on
>land where you can't have one of those.
>
>And your list is rich... Who was it again that liberated a significant
>portion of your country, back around, let's say, 1945? Do you really
>think that the most wealthy and the freest country in the world is an
>abject failure? That the country is worthless because of a poor
>response to one natural disaster?
Many people in the Netherlands believe that Canada played a major part
in their liberation. The celebrations this year of the anniversary of
that liberation showed that.
>
>> The tens of thousands of people trapped in New Orleans did not get
>> out of the city, because they did not "heed warnings", but because the
>> COULD NOT MAKE THAT CHOICE either because they had not the means, i.e.
>> no car of their own, or because they were ill, handicapped, in a
>> nursing home or hospital, whatever.
>
>You mean to tell me that within the course of a *year*, these folks
>couldn't figure out a way out of New Orleans? Panhandle for the $49 bus
>ticket to Baton Rouge. Heck, you could probably *walk* across the
>bridge to the north side of the lake in a week, and your chances of
>surviving Katrina's aftermath go up dramatically.
The problem is more complicated than both sides are willing to admit.
The actual knowledge of the probable scope of the storm was not known
for much more than a week. The landfall area was a wide range
narrowing only in the last 3 - 5 days. There were hotels still
telling tourists to come on ahead, they had always ridden out the
storms before. I suspect there was some pre-positioning done but it
is difficult because you don't want the relief supplies (and people)
to be wiped out by the storm. Moving things into most areas of
Mississippi before the storm would have been a bad idea as it turns
out. In addition, getting people to leave much before the need
becomes obvious is not easy. In some senses I was glad there was
extensive wind damage to justify the evacuation so that the next time
one would be ordered, it would be heeded. This was before the levees
gave way, levees which may not have been a federal responsibility.
>
>Although we may joke about things costing "an arm and a leg," most poor
>people do have feet (and, in this country, shoes to cover their feet,
>thanks to the generosity of their fellow man).
I fault the New Orleans government for not making use of the buses
they had to evacuate those without automobiles and not even trying to
make use of the admittedly limited capabilities that AMTRAK has. Even
2 or 3 train sets could have moved a significant number out of harms
way on Saturday and Sunday. In addition when the track was restored
late last week around Sept 2 or 3, AMTRAK equipment could have been
used for shuttles. I also fault the New Orleans government for not
implementing their plan for hospitals and nursing homes because they
did have a plan for this type of emergency.
>
>The handicapped / nursing home populations are a bit different. If they
>were the only people that were having to be saved, they would have been
>covered fine.
>
>> You claim that being poor in the USA just means that you have to
>> die when the hurricane hits.
>
>No - what you have here is people making choices. There are folks who
>balanced the risks of living there/staying there against the risks of
>leaving, or the effort of relocating, and decided that they would rather
>stay there. It is not the government's place to be there, ready to
>catch someone if their choice turns out to be a bad one.
See above. Also you have to have a place to go to and one of the
reasons the evacuation is so slow is they are running out of places to
send people. In addition, many people don't want to lose what little
they have to the looters and the elements. Its not so bad when you
have insurance but when you can't afford it, you may have a different
perspective.
>
>> But people to organize collectivities, which means in today's world
>> states, to organize for the common tasks and problems. The state USA
>> has obviously failed before that challenge.
>
>Our country was not founded to keep people out of the rain. Our
>Declaration of Independence and Constitution are online - that is why
>our country was founded.
>
>> So when this is useless and failed, it should be replaced. I think
>> that the failure of the USA as a state as shown in the incapacity to
>> deal with the upcoming catastrophe Katrina, will be a watershed like
>> the 1972 earthquake in Nicaragua, where a few years later the US-
>> sponsored Somoza dictatorship ended, just after having bombed their
>> own people - and when I see the military on their threatening patrols
>> in New Orleans, I think that might come faster.
>
>I hope that the military *does* take out our "own people" - the thugs
>who looted pawn shops and gun stores and have now formed their gangs who
>think they're going to be allowed to run the city. They're delusional,
>they're dangerous, and they need to be eliminated. You won't find many
>people in this country that disagree with me on that - I have yet to
>talk to someone who does. (And I *know* I'm not that convincing to talk
>to... :> ) It will *not* result in our country falling in on itself.
>
>What is striking is to contrast New Orleans' mayor's statements with
>Rudy Giuliani's statements (then the mayor of New York City) after
>September 11th. Giuliani's comments were comments of hope,
>determination, and condolence to those who lost loved ones. NO's
>mayor's comments are something along the lines of "Why haven't you
>helped us yet?" Attitude has a lot to do with the success of any kind
>of rebuilding. New Yorkers had it - do the residents of Louisiana?
>
>(I'm not hearing this defeatest spirit and "poor pitiful us" from
>Biloxi, MS; Gulfport, MS; or Mobile, AL. It seems to be confined to New
>Orleans. Consequently, look for much quicker progress in restoring
>*these* towns to their pre-Katrina state.)
>
>No one event, especially a natural one (over which we can *never* have
>any control), is going to sink this nation. Freedom is a stubborn
>thing, being one of the natural yearnings of the human spirit. A
>dispassionate assessment of the situation needs to be done, and a
>decision made about what should be done with New Orleans. (Is it smart
>to have a city 70 feet below sea level?)
.
- References:
- Re: OT: Katrina's Wrath
- From: LX-i
- Re: OT: Katrina's Wrath
- From: Lueko Willms
- Re: OT: Katrina's Wrath
- From: LX-i
- Re: OT: Katrina's Wrath
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