Re: Cobol work?

> "Defaultuser" <Defaultuser@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> "Judson McClendon" <judmc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> "Joe Zitzelberger" <joe_zitzelberger@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> I sometimes build systems with hundreds of thousands, even millions, of
>>> lines of code and many files. In such a system, I create name and
>>> abbreviation dictionaries so that every word used in data/paragraph
>>> names is spelled or abbreviated in *exactly* the same way in every use.
>>
>> I'm not sure what "build" means, but in my language that means
>> compile/link-edit but in context here it means more than that - given
>> that you create dictionaries and update/create code.
>
> Build = design, write, debug and install.
>
>> I recently read a book on SAP deployment in which the author had
>> successfully worked on deploying over 100 instances over 7 years which is
>> remarkable considering that this is more than one ENTERPRISE software
>> deployment a month....I thought the same thing of his statement as I did
>> of yours.
>
> I personally have written and/or designed some 70 different systems in
> about 35 years. Deploying is a piece of cake, compared to design and
> writing, which is the real work. :-)

I think that often deploying can be _more_ complicated than some software
design and writing. A typical enterprise installation requires multiple
hardware systems, not one single point of failure (that is redundant
storage, cpus, databases, power, offices and device drivers) and that
doesn't even begin to discuss the need to determine the resources and people
needed to manage and run the operations after the deployment. Depends
highly on the breadth of the application, of course, but when it is your end
to end supply chain....and that doesn't even touch on the maintenance and
management of the security to all the layers of the system...and that
doesn't even begin to touch on the management of the OS and software and
updates (even Linux has updates).

It ain't a piece of cake...I think unfortunately there is a tendency for
execs (this is not implying I think you are an exec, or that I even have you
are in mind - after all I don't know you) to think that you pay, you deploy,
you watch the cost savings without understanding what that means long term.
There are savings to be had, and more often than not, efficiencies to be
gained....but there is still a price for that and it's often in length of
contract, organizational restructure, business process realignment etc.

As that's not my thing at the moment though, I'm going to agree with you.

>>> Data names for the same field never vary, except for a prefix that
>>> designates the record (or "WS-" for 77 levels) containing the field, or
>>> when the sense of the field changes (e.g. Current Balance -> Previous
>>> Balance). My systems are crafted as carefully as I can build them.
>>> Nothing is left to chance that I can prevent, and I go to great lengths
>>> to make them understandable and maintainable.
>>
>> Every author thinks that their novel is great. Turns out it depends on
>> the reader. I happen to think Citizen Kane is a great movie - but I can
>> find hundreds who find it tedious. I applaud your efforts - and I do
>> think it probably results in easier to understand code, but nothing will
>> make a million lines of code easily maintainable.
>
> Maybe you've never seen one done really well? One system I did in 1997,
> with one associate helper who was experienced, but a COBOL newbie, was
> about 2.5 milllion lines of code. The old system, before our new system
> was installed, took 5 full time programmers, and most of another's time to
> maintain, and they were 6 months behind on changes. The new system takes
> only part of one programmer's time to maintain. And this is a system with
> frequent changes, a vehicle license system. Alabama has well over 200
> types of vehicle licenses, and it only takes a few signatures on a
> petition to create a special license, so new ones pop up all the time. I
> wasn't even there the day they brought it up, I was at an important
> meeting kicking off a Y2K project at another client that day. Balanced to
> the penny that day and every day since. Contact me by email, and I will be
> happy to refer you to the responsible parties, if you want to check. :-)
No, but if I'm ever lucky enough to have my own business with my own
requirements I might take you up on that.

>> I also believe that the hardest bugs to find are the ones that create
>> systematically incorrect but consistent results. Bug Free code does
>> *not* exist even if you are Phi Kappa Gamma Six Sigma Black Belt with a
>> CMM level 5 arm band development organization.
>
> I agree, nothing and nobody is perfect. But you might be very surprised
> how well it can be done when you work hard enough to do it right, and use
> the right methods. :-)
>>> In my whole career (since '68) have never once delivered a system that a
>>> client was less than very happy with, and typically, after three or four
>>> weeks eliminating the few final bugs, I don't hear from the clients for
>>> months or years, until they want something new.
>>
>> I've never seen a client that was anything but less than happy. It's
>> NEVER cheap or fast enough. Your clients are negotiating weenies :-)
>
> Well, I have had a few clients who weren't knowledgeable about software
> costs complain about the money. But once they hire another software vendor
> for something, that's the end of that. They wait as long as it takes, and
> don't complain about the cost. We worked our butts off for 18 months and
> billed a total of $408,000 for the vehicle license system above. The
> County Commission (not I.T.) complained about the cost, can you believe
> that? But they all love the system. :-)

I would say that is awfully cheap, frankly.

Let's see - I hope I get my math right:
2.5 m LOC / 18 months = 138888.89 LOC per month
Assume two equally gifted employees :
69444.45 LOC / month
Assume 30 days per month:
2314.815 LOC/ day
Assume 1440 minutes a day because sleeping is optional:
2314.82 / 1440 =1.61

Assume that each line of code contained approximately 4 "words" :
6-7

I would charge more than $408,000 to type an average of 6 words every minute
of every day for 18 months.

If like others you were to actually sleep, drink, eat and maybe leave the
house/office, spend an hour at clc....the rate to sustaing per working
minute would no doubt go up.....

> Negotiating weenies? Hardly! One of my long time (since 1988) clients and
> I had a falling out last year, but it had nothing to do with software. I
> don't sell hardware. I often spec hardware, of course, but I don't sell
> it. He demanded that I suggest someone to buy hardware from. Under
> protest, I told him who I buy hardware from, insisting the choice was his
> responsibility. Then he tried to nail me when one of the 7 PCs had some
> hardware problems. He hardly speaks to me now. But he doesn't complain
> about the software I wrote for him, he loves that. FYI his client/server
> inventory system is over 100k LOC, and I wrote it in 1988-89. From the day
> that system was installed he has never had to reload the database because
> of a program bug. I billed him $30,000 to write the system, but he
> complained so much about the six or eight bugs I fixed over the next few
> weeks, that I refunded $6,000. In his mind, it should install with zero
> bugs. That still makes me angry. But he loves the system. :-)

You're cheap. Can anyone else compete with 100k LOC for $30,000?

> Both these system were done on a time & materials basis, not fixed bid.

You see, they are negotiating weenies! Fixed bids are much more predictable.

> Judson McClendon judmc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (remove zero)
> Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
> "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
> whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Thanks - it was interesting to read about your experiences. I find that
reading these types of posts helps me to get a feel for how the world works
outside of my head ;-)
JCE


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