OT: Apostolic Succession (was Re: making money from Java)

There was already an OT: Religion started elsewhere, so I decided to be
more
specifid.

Bottom posting also:

"James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:406of.110903$ki.54011@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Can we do Bill a favour, and at his request switch this to an "OT" ?
> Having personally started "Making Money from Java" - all I got was (1)
> from Donald - Sun Microsystems sue the rest of the world and (2) some
> useful URLs from Stephen Gennard :-)
>
> Now a bottom posting :-
>
> Chuck Stevens wrote:
>> "Richard" <riplin@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:1134588070.599409.158760@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>>
>>>You are mistaken. While the first Popes were assigned (by the Roman
>>>Emperor) to have control over the roman church of the time
>>
>>
>> At the time of Constantine's establishment of Christianity as the
>> official religion of the Roman Empire, there was but one organized church
>> (with the occasional heretic group).
>>
>>
>>>there has
>>>been considerable diversity since then,
>>
>>
>> Two big splits: the schism of 1054, in which Pope Leo IX and Patriarch
>> Michael 1 excommunicated each other, and the Protestant Reformation begun
>> with Luther. The question is whether you regard the doctrinal
>> differences between, say, Mennonites and Amish, or "high-church"
>> Lutherans and Anglicans, as being significant.
>>
>> A side note: I was taught before Vatican II that the Roman Catholic
>> Church accepts (begrudgingly) that the Church of England (and by
>> extension some Episcopalian groups in the US), some Lutheran groups, and
>> so far as I know all of Orthodoxy has *retained* the apostolic succession
>> and thus the sacraments performed by those clergy that are within that
>> "bloodline" are entirely valid.
>>
>> -Chuck Stevens
>
> Yep I recognize Chuck's word 'begrudgingly' - depends who taught him.
>
> So the priesthood in Catholicism, "Once a priest always a priest". A
> seminarian studies and as a deacon in due course will prostrate himself in
> front of an altar before a bishop. The ritual involves the 'laying of
> hands' or passing on of the Holy Spirit - the deacon is now a consecrated
> priest.
>
> The Seven Sacraments, (of Catholicism) are Baptism, Penance/Confession,
> Holy Eucharist/Communion, Confirmation, Matrimony, Holy Orders and Extreme
> Unction; the latter being a ritual of anointing a dying person with oils -
> which you sometimes see in war movies where a chaplain is praying with a
> dying soldier. Priesthood comes in as #6, Holy Orders.
>
> So back to Chuck's comments - and let's just stick with Merrie Old Tudor
> England. The hierarchy, bishops, priests etc., were all ordained Catholic
> priests. So when there was the split with Rome and Thomas Cranmer was made
> Archbishop of Canterbury he automatically qualified as being an ordained
> Catholic priest - "Once a priest, always a priest". Therefore he was able
> to logically pass on the priesthood to fellow Protestants.
>
> The idea didn't sit well with a lot of catholic clergy, nor for that
> matter some of the Anglican clergy. However today any open-minded catholic
> theologian would admit to the principle. Similarly, many knowledgeable
> Anglican clerics are aware of the same loophole.
>
> Jimmy

My recollection is that a *priest* is allowed to perform all the
sacraments
*except Holy Orders*. That one requires a *bishop*.

Cranmer was ordained a priest; it's not clear that he was in the
meantime
ordained a *bishop*. Whether his subsequent ordinations as Archbishop
of
Canterbury are meaningful or not depends on whether a "real" bishop
ordained
him *as a bishop* (if not before, then at Canterbury). It is only
after the
officiant's ordination *as bishop* that the Church holds the
ordinations he
performs as valid.

Since the Roman Catholic Church *does* appear to accept that the
Apostolic
Succession has been maintained in the Church of England, my guess is
that
they're satisfied that he was indeed ordained *as a bishop* by a "real"

bishop.

-Chuck Stevens

.

Relevant Pages

  • Silenced priest warns of gay crisis
    ... to do with this church document. ... Silenced priest warns of gay crisis ... Arlington Bishop Paul Loverde ordered the priest silenced Oct. 23, ... Father Haley says his only crime is his insistence that homosexual ...
    (soc.retirement)
  • Re: are Catholics Christians ?!
    ...   The Eucharist lies at the very heart of the RCC; it's ... sacrament of ordination within the Anglican church, ... within Catholicism. ... specific point at which a priest is the Priest, ...
    (uk.religion.christian)
  • Re: pedophiles shouldnt be allowed near schools
    ... Investigation into allegations that a secret church directive, ... This priest was convicted of the terrible abuse of young girls. ... Only one was convicted after police were alerted by his bishop. ...
    (uk.sport.football.clubs.rangers)
  • pedophiles shouldnt be allowed near schools
    ... Yet the Rc church demands it in Scotland. ... This priest was convicted of the terrible abuse of young girls. ... police after 19 priests were accused of being paedophiles. ... Only one was convicted after police were alerted by his bishop. ...
    (uk.sport.football.clubs.rangers)
  • Re: pedophiles shouldnt be allowed near schools
    ... Investigation into allegations that a secret church directive, ... This priest was convicted of the terrible abuse of young girls. ... Only one was convicted after police were alerted by his bishop. ...
    (uk.sport.football.clubs.rangers)