Re: Making money from Java

"Judson McClendon" <judmc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:CU4of.8526$kP5.2446@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>>> Humans do not get into Heaven by being good, they get into Heaven in one
>>> and only one way, by receiving salvation by the grace of God, through
>>> faith in Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God, and Who died a
>>> substitutionary death to pay the penalty for our sins.
>>
>> If their works don't *demonstrate* their faith, however great the faith
>> might be, that's open to discussion.
>
> Actually, discussion doesn't enter into it. God knows who are the true
> believers, and doesn't ask our opinion on the matter. :-)

So you don't accept the Epistle of James as canonic? Or is it just the

second chapter you don't like? ;-)

>>> By definition, all Christians believe this, or they are not Christians.

Just a reminder: as I read it, the presumption is salvation by faith
(alone) through grace (alone).

I asked:

>> All Christians believe that, if your behavior doesn't match your
>> proclamations, you are nonetheless "saved"?

You replied:

> I have a very good friend who is a devout Christian. In 1975 when he was
> saved, and for a short time after, he was doing drugs and cursing and such
> because he didn't know any better. It wasn't his conduct that made him a
> Christian, but his faith in Jesus. We might look at someone and decide he
> is or isn't a Christian because of his actions, but we really can't be
> sure. Every Christian sins from time to time, and occasionally someone
> gets into a Big Sin. But it is still their faith in Jesus, not their
> actions, that make them a Christian. That's what it means to be saved "by
> grace". We don't deserve it.

Entirely irrelevant to my question.

> You certainly know more about Catholic doctrine than I do, I've never been
> a Catholic. But I have seen written declarations from the Catholic Church
> expressing precisely the definition I give above (in almost the exact same
> words), or I wouldn't have said so.

Look up "sola fide" in Wikipedia. It says "Sola fide (by faith alone),
also
historically known as the justification of faith, is a doctrine that
distinguishes Protestant denominations from Catholicism and Eastern
Christianity in Christianity." Martin Luther invented the slogan.
Martin
Luther is also reported in the Wikipedia article as having referred to
the
Epistle of James as the "epistle of straw". Martin Luther also
inserted the
word "allein" (alone) in his translation into German of Romans 3:28, "
....
is justified by faith *alone* ...", an insertion for which there seems
to be
no justification based on any early text for this passage in any
language.

> Anyway, it doesn't matter what I say, those principles are clearly and
> repeatedly defined in the Bible and beyond dispute.

"Don't bother me with the facts, my mind is made up!"? It may be
possible
to defend these principles from the Bible, but that does not prohibit
someone else from coming to a different, and equally defensible,
conclusion
from the same text. The Roman Catholic Church seems to have done so.

> I would be very shocked and disappointed to learn that the Catholic Church
> deviated so far from God's Word as to make themselves a cult.

No, Jordan. They deviated that far from *your interpreatation* of
God's
word. The Roman Catholic Church (and Eastern Orthodoxy) has, whether
you
like it or not, a direct and unbroken link in its hierarchy going all
the
way back to Peter and the bishops he ordained. Only bishops can ordain

bishops and priests. Whether you accept a "mystical" component to the
Apostolic Succession, it has a practical component in that what the
Early
Church Fathers *said*, and what they *understood*, beyond what they
*wrote*,
stands more of a chance of being preserved there than in an
organization
whose traditions began on October 31, 1517.

> Do Catholics believe that we are saved by the grace of God and not by
> works?

According to Wikipedia, "[sola fide] is rejected by Catholics, who say
faith
and works acting through God's Grace are necessary parts of salvation."

> Do Catholics believe that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ?

In part ...

> Do Catholics believe that Jesus is the only way to be reconciled to God?

Yes, I would say that's true; however, I suspect I understand "nobody
comes
to the Father save through me" differently from you.

> Do Catholics believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

Yes, and is also one substance with the Father, the second person of
the
Holy Trinity (the third being the Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the
Father and the Son).

> Do Catholics believe that Jesus died for our sins?

Yes.

> These are what I said all Christians believe.

You said all Christians believe in salvation by faith, and in that is
the
implicit premise that works don't matter. The Roman Catholic church
does
not agree.

> Surely you are not telling me that the answer to any of those is 'no'?

Sure am, Judson, from material that's as readily available to you as to
me.

There are *long* discussions on this subject in the online Catholic
encyclopedia at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/ under the subjects
"justification" and "grace".

Maybe it would be a good idea for you to digest not only Roman Catholic

doctrine, but also the reasons for each part of that doctrine, before
expounding on what that doctrine is and why it's right (or wrong) in
detail?

And that brings up the subject: Which uncontrivertable and
universally-accepted authority gave *you* the right to decide and
decree
*for others* who is, and who is not, a real Christian? It is one
thing to
*opine*, based on your understanding of Scripture and your
understanding of
a particular point; it is quite another to presume that your personal
understanding (and what you have been taught) is the Only Possible Way
to
read Scripture.

Can you not understand that others might perceive such a decree as
evidence
of both pride and arrogance on your part, neither of which is likely to
be
regarded as consistent with Christian behavior?

Can you not also understand that there is no difference between
accepting
the teachings of your *denomination* about what is and is not a real
Christian and the very attitudes in the Roman Catholic Church that
Luther
railed against in 1517?

If you're spouting your denomination's line, then your denomination's
taken
over Sole Ownership of The Only Correct Understanding of Scripture.
That's
arrogant *of them*, just as arrogant as the Reformation-era Western
Church.

If you've come to these conclusions *yourself*, and concluded that they

represent The Only Correct Understanding of Scripture, and it's your
job to
convince everyone how lousy *their* understanding is and how great
*yours*
is, well ...

-Chuck Stevens

.

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