Re: Making money from Java

<charles.stevens@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> "Judson McClendon" <judmc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>>>> Humans do not get into Heaven by being good, they get into Heaven in
>>>> one
>>>> and only one way, by receiving salvation by the grace of God, through
>>>> faith in Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God, and Who died a
>>>> substitutionary death to pay the penalty for our sins.
>>>
>>> If their works don't *demonstrate* their faith, however great the faith
>>> might be, that's open to discussion.
>>
>> Actually, discussion doesn't enter into it. God knows who are the true
>> believers, and doesn't ask our opinion on the matter. :-)
>
> So you don't accept the Epistle of James as canonic? Or is it just the
> second chapter you don't like? ;-)

I just do not interpret James as you apparently do. I understand James to be
saying (in paraphrase) "If you do not have faith that is demonstrated by
works, then your faith is not real, it is 'dead'. If you have real faith,
you will have works." Faith is not simple belief, it also implies trust.
Even the demons believe in God, and tremble (James 2:19), but their
intellectual belief does not save them. James is clearly talking about this
distinction. To interpret James as meaning that works are required as
requisite for salvation, you must take portions of what he wrote out of
major and minor context.

>>>> By definition, all Christians believe this, or they are not Christians.
>
> Just a reminder: as I read it, the presumption is salvation by faith
> (alone) through grace (alone).
>
> I asked:
>
>>> All Christians believe that, if your behavior doesn't match your
>>> proclamations, you are nonetheless "saved"?
>
> You replied:
>
>> I have a very good friend who is a devout Christian. In 1975 when he was
>> saved, and for a short time after, he was doing drugs and cursing and
>> such
>> because he didn't know any better. It wasn't his conduct that made him a
>> Christian, but his faith in Jesus. We might look at someone and decide he
>> is or isn't a Christian because of his actions, but we really can't be
>> sure. Every Christian sins from time to time, and occasionally someone
>> gets into a Big Sin. But it is still their faith in Jesus, not their
>> actions, that make them a Christian. That's what it means to be saved "by
>> grace". We don't deserve it.
>
> Entirely irrelevant to my question.

Not irrelevant, central to your question! A person does not become perfect,
then is saved. People are saved *from a state of sin*. To declare that a
person's actions must be in perfect alighment with Holiness before being
saved would completely destroy the whole concept of salvation. When we truly
accept Christ in our hearts, we are instantly "justified", legally accounted
to be perfect, in Christ, as a soverign act of God, whereby He attributes to
us the perfection of Jesus, based on our faith in Him. But our habits and
thoughts are not entirely and instantly renovated. It is only through a
process that lasts the rest of our lives are we "sanctified", that is, we
learn about God, we get to know Him personally, and learn to be obedient to
Him, and (hopefully) become more and more like Jesus in our character and
actions. This is a process that is never entirely completed in this life,
though some Christians get much farther along than others. The speed and
degree to which this happens is very much dependent on how freely we submit
to God, and how dilligently we pursue God through Bible study and prayer.
There *is no* Christian who walks an absolutely sinless life, in practice.
Our obedience to God brings reward, but it is our faith in Jesus as Savior
that permits God to account us as without sin. The Scriptural backing for
the above is extensive and comprehensive. Paul, for example, goes to great
length to explain these principles, and they are implicit throughout the New
Testament in particular, but also in the Old Testament (e.g. Psalm 51).

>> Anyway, it doesn't matter what I say, those principles are clearly and
>> repeatedly defined in the Bible and beyond dispute.
>
> "Don't bother me with the facts, my mind is made up!"? It may be
> possible
> to defend these principles from the Bible, but that does not prohibit
> someone else from coming to a different, and equally defensible,
> conclusion
> from the same text. The Roman Catholic Church seems to have done so.

Nothing could prevent people from coming up with different interpretations
of anything, no matter how clearly it is written. :-)

> You said all Christians believe in salvation by faith, and in that is the
> implicit premise that works don't matter. The Roman Catholic church
> does not agree.

I didn't say (nor does the Bible say) that "works don't matter." Works are
important, and God expects us to produce works. They just don't help save
us.

> Maybe it would be a good idea for you to digest not only Roman Catholic
> doctrine, but also the reasons for each part of that doctrine, before
> expounding on what that doctrine is and why it's right (or wrong) in
> detail?

Well I didn't just speak on whim, I have read and heard quite a bit about
Roman Catholic doctrine over the years. But I am no expert, I readily
concede this.

> And that brings up the subject: Which uncontrivertable and
> universally-accepted authority gave *you* the right to decide and
> decree
> *for others* who is, and who is not, a real Christian? It is one
> thing to
> *opine*, based on your understanding of Scripture and your
> understanding of
> a particular point; it is quite another to presume that your personal
> understanding (and what you have been taught) is the Only Possible Way
> to
> read Scripture.

And I might ask, what authority gave you the right to post any advice to
anyone on anything? Duh! We all speak from what we know. We share our
knowledge and what we think with others on a wide variety of subjects. It
happens that I have been studying the Bible in a very serious way for over
30 years. Whether you agree with me or not, I believe that qualifies me to
express more than a neophyte's opinion on these issues. :-)

> Can you not understand that others might perceive such a decree as
> evidence
> of both pride and arrogance on your part, neither of which is likely to be
> regarded as consistent with Christian behavior?

When you speak with confidence from your (admitedly extensive) programming
experience, do you expect yourself to be accused of pride and arrogance?

I understand that Christians throughout the last 2000 years have been
persecuted and killed for simply sharing with others what Jesus said. Jesus
Himself was crucified, and He was perfect. Jesus made it very clear that if
the Master is persecuted, so will His followers. You think I should wait
until no one is going to disagree with me before stating things that I know
from long and dilligent study are the truth? Is that your philosophy
regarding your own areas of knowledge? It doesn't appear so to me. :-) In
fact, your vociferous response makes me understand the motivations behind
the Roman Inquisition a bit more clearly. What was that you were saying
about how Christians should act? ;-)

> Can you not also understand that there is no difference between accepting
> the teachings of your *denomination* about what is and is not a real
> Christian and the very attitudes in the Roman Catholic Church that Luther
> railed against in 1517?

It depends on the validity of those teachings, does it not? Luther opposed
particular Roman Catholic doctrines because those doctrines were in conflict
with the Bible. I do not belong to a 'denomination'. I don't have a problem
with denominations, but what human denominations say about God are not the
issue. It is what God has declared in His Word that matters. Not every issue
in the Bible is so clear that there can be no disagreement. But there is a
lot of disagrement over issues that are perfectly clear, where there should
be no disagreement. I can't help that. I had no intention of trying to
criticize Roman Catholic doctrine. If I had, I certainly would have picked
another topic in which to do so. If you recall, I was actually stating
something on which I thought (actually, I still do think) that the Catholic
Church agrees. :-)
--
Judson McClendon judmc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (remove zero)
Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."


.

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