Re: Making money from Java

"Chuck Stevens" <charles.stevens@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> "Judson McClendon" <judmc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> "Richard" <riplin@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> Each religious group has its own different belief system. Judson makes
>>> the mistake of believing that 'all true christians' are exactly like
>>> himself, but that is probably because he avoids anything that does not
>>> support his views.
>>
>> Where do you get these obsurdities, Richard? I never said that "all true
>> Christians" believe as I do. I have never had such a thought. There are
>> certain things which are very commonly held among Christians, but there
>> are also wide diversities of opinion on other issues. I have never said
>> or thought anything else.
>
> I seem to recall a message in which you wrote that Roman Catholics agree
> with you on the issues of "faith alone" and "grace alone", which are
> prerequisite premises to being correctly called Christian.
>
> All the evidence at hand leads me to believe "sola fide" and "sola gratia"
> are specifically Reformation positions, and stem directly from Luther, and
> are rejected by the Roman Catholic church.

I believe the apparent discrepance here is essentially semantical. From your
comments about James 2 and so forth, I suspect that Catholic Doctrine is
concerned with the issue James was, that Christians envision someone
becoming a Christian without understanding the importance of works. People
had apparently misunderstanding Paul's comments about "faith apart from
works" as meaning there is no need for works. However, as James points out,
if you have the faith that God wants (unlike demons, who believe), then that
faith will produce works. There is no discrepancy between Paus and James,
Paul is simply speaking about what it takes to be saved, in alegal sense,
James is talking about the Christian experience. Works contribute nothing,
nada, zip toward obtaining salvation. But if a person is really saved, then
they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, Who *will* produce works. Denying the
works means denying the indwelling, ergo works are necessary, but as fruit
of salvation, not in obtaining it. This *has* to be the case, for salvation
is also by grace, and grace is not grace if there is works, as Paul says. If
the Bible is the inerrent Word of God, then you must interpret Scripture in
a way that is consistent with major and minor context. Any other
interpretation of these Scriptures here produces conflict with other
Scripture. This interpretation does not.

> Thus, as I read your premise: (1) All Christians must believe in
> salvation by faith alone through grace alone. (2) Roman Catholicism
> teaches that salvation is by faith alone through grace alone. Therefore
> (3) Roman Catholic doctrine is a Christian doctrine.
>
> Whether (1) is true or not, (2) is definitely false.

The Bible clearly and defiinitely teaches (1). Draw your own conclusions
about the rest. :-)

> And if (1) is factually true then no Roman Catholic (or for that matter
> Eastern Orthodox) group has the right to call itself Christian, by your
> rules. Is that sort of arrogance appropriate behavior for a Christian?

To simply relay what the Bible clearly says is not arrogance.

Do you think God reads Roman Catholic doctrine to decide whether individuals
are saved? :-) Every person receives Jesus or not as an individual. Groups,
such as denominations, are a man created thing. The Bible declares all
Christians (true believers in Jesus) to be "one". When the Bible declares
that we are saved by grace through faith, apart from works, that is the end
of the issue. Paul clearly says that and James did not contradict it, he was
clearly writing to stave off a particular wrong interpretation of Paul.
Anyone who looks at Scripture trying to decide which part to believe is
missing the boat. If the Bible is not God's Word, then it is foolish to have
a religion based on it. If the Bible is God's word, then it is entirely
consistent. If we don't see the consistency, we should study until we do see
it. Until that time, we must put aside interpretation of that area that
seems to be in conflict.

> Does God really play "Simon says ..."?

Not as far as I know. I don't think God plays games of any sort. He is
apparently entirely serious about anything He says. :-)
--
Judson McClendon judmc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (remove zero)
Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."


.

Relevant Pages

  • DN Elect in Christ 7/14/2006
    ... bound together by God's redeeming grace. ... are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen ...
    (alt.religion.christian)
  • DN Elect in Christ 7/14/2007
    ... bound together by God's redeeming grace. ... are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen ...
    (alt.religion.christian)
  • Re: 911 5th Anniversary Link
    ... we don't understand the holiness of God. ... just suggested that people who aren't Christians are, ... At the end of this process - and we instinctively seek justice with all our hearts - we are offered some opportunity for eternal existence, the nature of that existence will depend entirely upon the person we have become and those who have freely rejected 'god' will experience continued existence in that state, while those who have accepted grace and sanctification will be in some part divine. ...
    (uk.religion.christian)
  • Re: Stupid Mormons, Stupid Mormons
    ... not an act of grace but is instead a reward for performing good works. ... Bear in mind that as Christians we can also be accused of the same thing. ... not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his ...
    (uk.religion.christian)
  • Re: Making money from Java
    ... > and only one way, by receiving salvation by the grace of God, through ... > By definition, all Christians believe this, or they are not Christians. ... Being right or wrong on lesser matters of doctrine may ... you directly *exclude* Roman Catholics from ...
    (comp.lang.cobol)