Re: Making money from Java

"Judson McClendon" <judmc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:IWZpf.16589$k76.7165@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Yes it is. In order to say it honestly you have to be that convinced. Does
> it offend you that I am that convinced? You may be completely happy
> believing that everything is relative, but there are absolutes.

It offends me that your conviction about your opinions leads you to
categorize the views of those who disagree with you, not as differences of
opinion, but as fundamental errors in fact. What emphasis to place on which
meaning of what words in which passages is a matter of *opinion* and of
*choice*, not of *fact*.

>> Behavior reflecting humility I find more convincing of a Christian life
>> than behavior reflecting hubris.
>
> Ha! You find *nothing* convincing of a Christian life, as you have
> repeatedly pointed out in great detail. You simply want Christians to be
> as uncertain as yourself. Sorry. :-)

No, I find a *great deal* convincing of a Christian life.

I don't happen to believe that if someone publically states that anyone who
doesn't agree with your conclusions about "faith alone" (or "grace alone" or
"scripture alone", for that matter), as you deem them clearly and explicitly
declared in scripture in so many words is therefore deprived of the right to
consider himself a "true Christian" and is therefore condemned forever, such
a person is clearly demonstrating a "Christian life" in those actions!

What gives you the right to describe me as "uncertain"? Have I *ever*
indicated agnosticism, or anything other than a firm acceptance of Jesus as
Messiah/Christos, as Son of God, as part of the traditional Trinity, as
Savior? Why is it that my disagreements with you over what the Bible
actually *says* directly lead you to the presumption that I must therefore
be "uncertain"?

> The fact is, when a person is willing to submit their will, their very
> life, to God, that is a very clear indication of humility, at least in
> that respect.

It may demonstrate humility to *oneself*, and it might even be taken as
humility *to God*. It is not clear that "You're wrong and I'm RIGHT, you're
condemned and I'm SAVED!" is a demonstration *to anyone else* of that
humility.

Take your own inventory before taking mine. *Verify* that there are no
rafters sticking out of *your* eyes before worrying abut the splinters in my
eyes!

> Being certain about God has no relationship whatever to hubris.

Who said I was uncertain about God? Have you decided that despite my
protestations to the contrary I'm one of the self-proclaimed atheists or
agnostics (or deists or theists) who have posted to this group? I don't
think *I've* included myself among them!

> But taking upon yourself the decision to reject your Creator from your
> life, *that* is hubris. :-)

OK, Mr. McClendon. You've made this assertion about me and my life. Please
point out to me, and to everyone else, the message in which I have written
such a thing. Please point out to me, and to everyone else, where I have
*done* such a thing.

I deny that I have made such a decision, I deny that I make such a decision
today, I deny that I have described such a decision anywhere in this forum.

For you to state or intimate in a public forum that I have rejected my
Creator (to say nothing of Christianity as *I* understand it) from my life
qualifies as libel, slander, and calumny.

And I contend libel, slander and calumny do not represent behavior patterns
one would reasonably accept as admirable Christian behavior. I believe a
Christian would take the time to verify any such characterization before
making it, and therefore a person who claimed to be Christian and
demonstrated such behavior would be behaving in an *unChristian* manner.

I have studied the same Scriptures you have studied. I have come to
different conclusions, based on that careful study (and specifically
including the languages in which those Scriptures were originally written)
over decades, from those to which you seem to have come. That I disagree
with your opinions on certain matters of what the text actually says does
not mean that I have rejected my Creator, or my Savior. *Or yours*, if you
insist that they differ (which I don't!).

>> All that any of us say here simply reflects (hopefully) the best that we
>>> know. None of us have perfect knowledge, and none of us are without
>>> flaw.
>>
>> I agree. If you believe that, then what you write ought to reflect it
>> consistently. It hasn't, at least to me.
>
> Sorry, I can't help that.

Why not? If your behavior reflects badly, why is it inappropriate for you
to change it? You're the one that declared Catholicism a Christian belief
*solely* on the basis of "sola fide", which tenet they explicitly and
vehemently reject!

> Sorry. If you don't believe the evidence Creation, if you don't believe
> the evidence of the Bible, and you don't believe the witness of millions
> who have met Jesus, then there's nothing I can do for you, except pray for
> you. I've been doing that. :-)

Why would you suggest that belief in Jesus as Messiah and as Savior
*requires* belief, for example, that the universe was created -- more or
less -- on the nightfall before Sunday, October 23, 4004BC? I *personally*
don't share the opinion that that's a particularly vital part of what being
a Christian is about, particularly since I don't think the original *Hebrew*
text requires that interpretation!

I don't mind people praying for me; in fact, I encourage that. But I would
seek to discourage you from praying that I be raised to the high level of
understanding that you, praise God! have managed to reach.

On a more-than-daily basis, I pray to turn both my will and my life over to
the care of God (and not take it back). On a more-than-daily basis, I ask
God to remove anything that stands in the way of my ability to serve God and
my fellow man. On a more-than-daily basis, I ask God to help me improve my
conscious contact with Him, to improve my knowledge of His will for me and
to give me the power and the willingness to carry that out. I ask these
things for myself, many times a day, and I have no objection to your praying
for these things for me. I do object to any hint of a prayer that I would
be elevated to your lofty level of spiritual enlightenment.

> I suggest that the question of where your soul will spend eternity is one
> in which you should have more certainty than you express by that language.

I flatly refuse to place myself in a position of stating anything along the
lines of "I'm going to Heaven -- and YOU'RE NOT!!!! Nyah! Nyah! Nyah!".
All I can do is the best that I can do.

If I am *certain* about where I will spend eternity, what I do here, how I
behave toward my fellow man, is immaterial, and I therefore have *license*
to commit any sin. I do *not agree* with that premise. I also *do not*
agree with the premise that, by virtue of a person's proclamation of having
been SAVED (or BORN AGAIN) their behavior is forevermore EXEMPLARY of
Christian behavior. That ain't so. And I contend that such behavior
matters *in this life and in the next*. I've already cited C&V on the
subject.

My life will be an open book at the Judgment Bar. I have strengths and I
have weaknesses, I have accomplishments and I have failures. I believe in
Jesus' salvation, and in Jesus' intercession. What happens at the Judgment
Bar with respect to that record is up to God. I'm not willing to say that
I'm *guaranteed* a place in Heaven, nor do I agree that *anyone* can, or
should, say that about himself.

> Would you think it preferable if I were to be a bit more uncertain about
> my own destiny?

So, we're back to "I'm going to Heaven --- and YOU'RE NOT! Nyah! Nyah!
Nyah!"?

> If I expressed lack of certainty in the things in which I place my faith,
> you would simply criticize that as lack of faith in what I believe.

Would I, now?

> You have constructed, by your choice of attitude, a situation in which you
> would feel justified in attacking my position either way. Sorry.

Nope. I don't describe as *wrong* the position that e.g. the universe was
created on the evening before October 23, 4004BC. I state that my reading
of the Hebrew text of the Creation story does not convince me that that's
the only possible interpretation of the text. That's but one example among
many (including "born again" for which I prefer "begotten from above").

-Chuck Stevens


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