Re: Making money from Java

Chuck,

Way to stick up for yourself. I simply do not get where Judson is coming
from in attacking you this way. It is obvious to me that you have spent a
lot of time thinking these issues through and you have expressed yourself
very well.

Top post no more below.

"Chuck Stevens" <charles.stevens@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:do9v3s$a50$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> "Judson McClendon" <judmc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:IWZpf.16589$k76.7165@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Yes it is. In order to say it honestly you have to be that convinced.
>> Does it offend you that I am that convinced? You may be completely happy
>> believing that everything is relative, but there are absolutes.
>
> It offends me that your conviction about your opinions leads you to
> categorize the views of those who disagree with you, not as differences of
> opinion, but as fundamental errors in fact. What emphasis to place on
> which meaning of what words in which passages is a matter of *opinion* and
> of *choice*, not of *fact*.
>
>>> Behavior reflecting humility I find more convincing of a Christian life
>>> than behavior reflecting hubris.
>>
>> Ha! You find *nothing* convincing of a Christian life, as you have
>> repeatedly pointed out in great detail. You simply want Christians to be
>> as uncertain as yourself. Sorry. :-)
>
> No, I find a *great deal* convincing of a Christian life.
>
> I don't happen to believe that if someone publically states that anyone
> who doesn't agree with your conclusions about "faith alone" (or "grace
> alone" or "scripture alone", for that matter), as you deem them clearly
> and explicitly declared in scripture in so many words is therefore
> deprived of the right to consider himself a "true Christian" and is
> therefore condemned forever, such a person is clearly demonstrating a
> "Christian life" in those actions!
>
> What gives you the right to describe me as "uncertain"? Have I *ever*
> indicated agnosticism, or anything other than a firm acceptance of Jesus
> as Messiah/Christos, as Son of God, as part of the traditional Trinity, as
> Savior? Why is it that my disagreements with you over what the Bible
> actually *says* directly lead you to the presumption that I must therefore
> be "uncertain"?
>
>> The fact is, when a person is willing to submit their will, their very
>> life, to God, that is a very clear indication of humility, at least in
>> that respect.
>
> It may demonstrate humility to *oneself*, and it might even be taken as
> humility *to God*. It is not clear that "You're wrong and I'm RIGHT,
> you're condemned and I'm SAVED!" is a demonstration *to anyone else* of
> that humility.
>
> Take your own inventory before taking mine. *Verify* that there are no
> rafters sticking out of *your* eyes before worrying abut the splinters in
> my eyes!
>
>> Being certain about God has no relationship whatever to hubris.
>
> Who said I was uncertain about God? Have you decided that despite my
> protestations to the contrary I'm one of the self-proclaimed atheists or
> agnostics (or deists or theists) who have posted to this group? I don't
> think *I've* included myself among them!
>
>> But taking upon yourself the decision to reject your Creator from your
>> life, *that* is hubris. :-)
>
> OK, Mr. McClendon. You've made this assertion about me and my life.
> Please point out to me, and to everyone else, the message in which I have
> written such a thing. Please point out to me, and to everyone else, where
> I have *done* such a thing.
>
> I deny that I have made such a decision, I deny that I make such a
> decision today, I deny that I have described such a decision anywhere in
> this forum.
>
> For you to state or intimate in a public forum that I have rejected my
> Creator (to say nothing of Christianity as *I* understand it) from my life
> qualifies as libel, slander, and calumny.
>
> And I contend libel, slander and calumny do not represent behavior
> patterns one would reasonably accept as admirable Christian behavior. I
> believe a Christian would take the time to verify any such
> characterization before making it, and therefore a person who claimed to
> be Christian and demonstrated such behavior would be behaving in an
> *unChristian* manner.
>
> I have studied the same Scriptures you have studied. I have come to
> different conclusions, based on that careful study (and specifically
> including the languages in which those Scriptures were originally written)
> over decades, from those to which you seem to have come. That I disagree
> with your opinions on certain matters of what the text actually says does
> not mean that I have rejected my Creator, or my Savior. *Or yours*, if
> you insist that they differ (which I don't!).
>
>>> All that any of us say here simply reflects (hopefully) the best that we
>>>> know. None of us have perfect knowledge, and none of us are without
>>>> flaw.
>>>
>>> I agree. If you believe that, then what you write ought to reflect it
>>> consistently. It hasn't, at least to me.
>>
>> Sorry, I can't help that.
>
> Why not? If your behavior reflects badly, why is it inappropriate for
> you to change it? You're the one that declared Catholicism a Christian
> belief *solely* on the basis of "sola fide", which tenet they explicitly
> and vehemently reject!
>
>> Sorry. If you don't believe the evidence Creation, if you don't believe
>> the evidence of the Bible, and you don't believe the witness of millions
>> who have met Jesus, then there's nothing I can do for you, except pray
>> for you. I've been doing that. :-)
>
> Why would you suggest that belief in Jesus as Messiah and as Savior
> *requires* belief, for example, that the universe was created -- more or
> less -- on the nightfall before Sunday, October 23, 4004BC? I
> *personally* don't share the opinion that that's a particularly vital part
> of what being a Christian is about, particularly since I don't think the
> original *Hebrew* text requires that interpretation!
>
> I don't mind people praying for me; in fact, I encourage that. But I
> would seek to discourage you from praying that I be raised to the high
> level of understanding that you, praise God! have managed to reach.
>
> On a more-than-daily basis, I pray to turn both my will and my life over
> to the care of God (and not take it back). On a more-than-daily basis, I
> ask God to remove anything that stands in the way of my ability to serve
> God and my fellow man. On a more-than-daily basis, I ask God to help me
> improve my conscious contact with Him, to improve my knowledge of His will
> for me and to give me the power and the willingness to carry that out. I
> ask these things for myself, many times a day, and I have no objection to
> your praying for these things for me. I do object to any hint of a
> prayer that I would be elevated to your lofty level of spiritual
> enlightenment.
>
>> I suggest that the question of where your soul will spend eternity is one
>> in which you should have more certainty than you express by that
>> language.
>
> I flatly refuse to place myself in a position of stating anything along
> the lines of "I'm going to Heaven -- and YOU'RE NOT!!!! Nyah! Nyah!
> Nyah!". All I can do is the best that I can do.
>
> If I am *certain* about where I will spend eternity, what I do here, how I
> behave toward my fellow man, is immaterial, and I therefore have *license*
> to commit any sin. I do *not agree* with that premise. I also *do not*
> agree with the premise that, by virtue of a person's proclamation of
> having been SAVED (or BORN AGAIN) their behavior is forevermore EXEMPLARY
> of Christian behavior. That ain't so. And I contend that such behavior
> matters *in this life and in the next*. I've already cited C&V on the
> subject.
>
> My life will be an open book at the Judgment Bar. I have strengths and I
> have weaknesses, I have accomplishments and I have failures. I believe in
> Jesus' salvation, and in Jesus' intercession. What happens at the
> Judgment Bar with respect to that record is up to God. I'm not willing
> to say that I'm *guaranteed* a place in Heaven, nor do I agree that
> *anyone* can, or should, say that about himself.
>
>> Would you think it preferable if I were to be a bit more uncertain about
>> my own destiny?
>
> So, we're back to "I'm going to Heaven --- and YOU'RE NOT! Nyah! Nyah!
> Nyah!"?
>
>> If I expressed lack of certainty in the things in which I place my faith,
>> you would simply criticize that as lack of faith in what I believe.
>
> Would I, now?
>
>> You have constructed, by your choice of attitude, a situation in which
>> you would feel justified in attacking my position either way. Sorry.
>
> Nope. I don't describe as *wrong* the position that e.g. the universe was
> created on the evening before October 23, 4004BC. I state that my reading
> of the Hebrew text of the Creation story does not convince me that that's
> the only possible interpretation of the text. That's but one example
> among many (including "born again" for which I prefer "begotten from
> above").
>
> -Chuck Stevens
>


.

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