Re: Any comments? (Answers to Pete)


Thanks for the response, Daniel. I accept it in the spirit in which you
intended it.

Some further comments below...
"LX-i" <lxi0007@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:45cf6$443060c9$45491d7a$8817@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Pete Dashwood wrote:
Here are some other things I really don't understand:

1. God SO loved the world, he gave his only son to be tortured and killed
as atonement for the sins of Mankind.

What were these sins that demanded such a sacrifice?
Well, a woman offered her man some fruit that God had said they weren't
to touch. (It was a test; why would an omniscient God, who already knew
what the outcome was going to be, do this? For a laugh? To help combat
the boredom of being eternal? Whatever, it strikes me as distinctly
unGodlike behaviour...)
So a man (who happens to be the personification of God) gets flogged,
humiliated, and crucified because an apple was stolen thousands of years
before? Last time I looked, the cost of apples was not exactly so high
that you'd kill for one...never mind torturing and humiliation.

Heh - well, if you look at it that way, no wonder it doesn't make sense.
:) The sin wasn't necessarily eating an apple - it was the choice to
disobey God. He created them with free will - they had to choose whether
to obey Him or not.

And, God didn't want a sea of robots (or that would be what He would have
created). Rather, He wanted beings who would *choose* to worship Him for
Who He is, and trust Him for their needs.

Well, OK. But then shouldn't he accept their decision not to do what He
wanted, without punishing them or requiring a blood sacrifice because they
didn't meet his expectations? (And let's not forget that He knew what the
outcome would be before he ever put the tree in the Garden...) Banishment
from the garden, no more gravy train, and eventually the death of Jesus...
Doesn't that seem like petulance because they didn't toe the line? I would
expect an omnipotent being to say: "OK. You made a bad choice. You and I
part company from here. You get on without me and I'll do a different
project somewhere else." I still don't see why the blood sacrifice was
required.

And why is an omniscient, omnipotent being so insecure that He requires
worship anyway? What does the worship prove? That you terrified people into
doing whatever you want? I really have some major problems with all of
this...

2. And who was this terrible sacrifice made to?
Well.... God.
The same God who gave his son (who was actually himself) to the mob?
Er...Yes.

Isn't that a bit like deciding to cut your foot off with a blunt knife
because the cat did something to offend you?
I dunno, ask a Christian.

Jesus was sent because it is only He who could maintain a sinless life.

I have trouble with that too... Are we saying He never slept with Mary
(Magdalene), or lied to his parents when he was a kid, or played hookey from
school or stole the neighbours apples? If that is is all so and He truly was
'sinless', then how can the argument that he became a person hold water? On
the one hand we are told that all have sinned and it is part of the Human
condition, on the other we are asked to accept that someone who wasn't Human
became so without sinning. It is far too convoluted for a a simple brain
like mine....

For 33 1/3 years, He did it. His death was an acceptable sacrifice.

But WHY was ANY sacrifice required? Because Adam and Eve disobeyed God?
Wasn't getting evicted form paradise enough punishment for that? Besides
they were supposed to have a choice. It isn't a choice if the only real
option is to do as you are told. If God didn't want robots then the choice
they made should have been equally as acceptable as the one He required/
preferred.

This bit really does escape me.


The fact that He didn't stay dead shows not only that He paid for sin, but
that He has also beaten sin "once" and "for all."

Fair enough. But if God had behaved reasonably and with the sagacity you
could reasonably expect from a Supreme Being, there would have been no need
for the sacrifice in the first place.
(As for who determines acceptability - well, that's God's job. He doesn't
keep it a secret, though.)


The fact is that his requirement gives us a lot of insight about Him.
Personally, I'm not surprised that Mankind didn't choose to trust Him and
rely on Him. Even if all of this is true (and I see it as allegorical myth)
I still wouldn't be able to worship such a vicious egomaniac.

3. And was this terrible sacrifice acceptable?
Apparently so.
For nicking an apple?
Yes.
And babies born every day are still 'tainted' by what this man and woman
did?
Yes. Until they accept Jesus.

Sounds like you're getting the picture - I thought you said you didn't?
;)

To be fair, Daniel, I have given this whole subject a great deal of thought.
(And study.) Over 20 years. And not just Christianity...All of it.
Certainly, I have invested enough thought into the subject to know the
parts that confuse me and don't seem to add up. I also realise that my views
on it are purely subjective and I would never seek to persuade anyone else
to my point of view. One thing I am very certain about is that as long as
there are religions in the world, all of us will need toleranmce and respect
for each other's viewpoints.



4. So, if I can bring myself to accept this whole fiasco, I'll be saved?
Yep.
Guaranteed?
Yep.
I don't have to do anything, except believe it?
Yep.
No personal responsibility, just hang it all on the man on the cross?
Yep. Mind you, you should try not to sin any more... but if you slip up,
you'll be forgiven.
So, God really is kind and forgiving?
Yep. Infinitely so.
So why would he... Oh, never mind.

He is infinitely kind and forgiving, but also infinitely just. Justice
requires punishment for wrongdoing.

Here we part company.

Irreconcilably, I'm afraid. I simply don't believe that 'justice' requires
punishment. I believe that wrongdoing should be stopped. The punishment
aspect has always been used as a deterrent. I see it as a negative one. And
ineffective at that.

Somebody does wrong, they should be persuaded to take responsibility for
what they did, and encouraged to see that it was wrong. (I don't see
punishment as being effective in doing this.) It is incumbent on them to
make reparation to the victim (if that is possible). If they are a hopeless
case who simply can't grasp the fundamentals of living decently with other
people, they should be removed from society. (Banished, imprisoned, or
executed, depending on the crimes. NOT as 'punishment' but as they have
demonstrated they are unsuitable to be allowed to live in a civilized
society.)

I contend that a history of punishiing people has failed to change their
behaviour. It's time we tried an alternative approach,. The aim should be to
treat commission of crime as indicating aberration on the part of the
perpetrator. The object should be to rehabilitate them back into society.
Only when that fails should they be removed. Punishment and 'an eye for an
eye' is simply a very flawed, primitive, concept that leads inevitably to a
blind and toothless society. If people thought right in the first place,
they wouldn't commit crime. We should therefore encourage them to think
right. (No, I am not advocating 1984's Thought Police... :-) Thinking should
never be a crime and all of us should be free to think and express our
thoughts without fear. It is when thought becomes anti-social action that
suppression is required. That suppression can be humane and civilized or it
can be ruthless and cruel. A decent society would favour the former.


Mercy means that He accepts someone else's payment for our wrongdoings,
so we don't have to suffer punishment ourselves. All we have to do is
claim that payment.

Nope. I can't do that. I don't want anybody (not even God made flesh) paying
for the wrongs I have done. I'll do that myself, thank you. I consider
recognising the need for that and working it out, as part of my personal
growth.



The above is not intended to be offensive to devout Christians and I
apologise unreservedly if you find it so. I'm trying to honestly convey
some of the confusion that Christianity gives rise to in me, at least.

I wasn't - and my answers aren't an attempt to "change you" or "make you
see the light" or anything like that. Just trying to help dispel your
confusion. :)
I know that and thank you. It is rare to have a civilized discussion where
people feel strongly, differ, but are prepared to examine issues in a spirit
of goodwill. Your answers have given me some insight into how you view these
same issues, but, as you might expect, I am not persuaded.

Gotta go now... there are some guys in hoods setting fire to a cross on
my front lawn... must be Christians, I guess... It's a very violent
religion....:-)

You think that's bad, just wait until Allah's followers come to your town!

Well, they'll be as welcome as anybody else who behaves properly... :-) We
still practise the right to freedom of religion and speech here. Of course,
if you start blowing things up, then you may find those rights curtailed...
Freedom is a privilege (not, as popularly supposed, a right...); those who
don't deserve it, should lose it.

Pete.



.

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