Re: Whacko Russian Declines Field Medal


"Alistair" <alistair@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1156506889.729965.85900@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Pete Dashwood wrote:
Point is, God created us with greed, envy, lust, hate, and an panalopy
of
other "nasty" emotions and God didn't make junk.

Oh no? Do you really want to pursue this... :-) Just for openers:

1. Wasps
2. Mosquitoes
3. Snakes

I object to the above three items being included on the list. Wasps
species are active in pest control, male mosquitos do not suck blood
(therefore must live on other food sources such as nectar) so
presumably are capable of doing some good. Snakes are very good at
vermin control. In areas where snakes are substantially reduced in
number due to human decimation of their species, the numbers of mice
and rats increase to pestilential levels (and contaminate grain
stocks).

Your objection is noted... :-)

I could argue each of them, but I can't be bothered. Perhaps you should take
it up with God...? (I bet He has some blinding arguments in favour... :-))


3. Earthquakes
4. Hurricanes
5. Tsunamis.
6. Tornados

These four are very useful to religious nutters who can claim that they
are manifestations of their God(s) because of man's misdemeanours.
Sometimes the attribution backfires (tsunamis decimating Muslim
populations).


Still 'junk' as far as I'm concerned... :-)

Lots of junk is useful (that's why people forage landfill sites...), but
it's still junk. HeyBub's point was that God doesn't make junk. I simply
disagree... There are many "Acts of God" that the world would be a better
(certainly "safer for us") place without.

If my house gets wiped out by a meteorite in the next few days, I wonder how
many people reading this would see it as divine retribution for my heresy.
Yet, the chances of it happeneing are exactly the same whether I believe in
God or not.

...
all pretty pointless... and that's before we get to the Apocalyptic
stuff...

5. War
6. Pestilence
7. Famine
8. Death
8. Hopelessness and despair
9. Depression
10. Religion
...
& etc.

The problem here is that if you make God responsible for everything then
you
have a single valued logic system (Fatalism) and there is no point in us
(you and I) engaging in reasoned debate. There is no right or wrong, only
the will (and rightness) of God.

(I believe this is one of the fundamental tenets of Islam, and it is
impossible to reason with. The only possible defence to it would be to
have
an alternative deity who is more powerful than Allah, and argue that it
is
HIS will that must be obeyed. People who have tried this one (Christian
missionaries to Muslim countries) tended to find themselves headless very
quickly (if they were lucky), so it is probably not going to be a
persuasive
argument here.)

I guess the best a believer can do is to accept that God DID make junk
and
maybe did so to test our perception of what is junk...or for some other
divinely mysterious reason that we cannot fathom at this stage of our
development.

As an atheist I have no problem with there being junk in the Universe, as
I
don't expect it to behave morally or fairly, or with deference to the
needs
of Men.

These emotions are normal and natural. It's what we DO with these
inclinations that counts, not their mere existence. The difference
between
greed and love is similar to the difference between a bucket of paint
and a
stick of dynamite. It is easier to do good or harm with one or the
other,
but good or harm is not ruled out for either (if you force someone to
drink
the paint, they die).

But you are sayng that anyone without a bucket of paint and a stick of
dynamite is abnormal. I say they are simply someone without a bucket of
paint or a stick of dynamite.

At least that's what my tradition teaches, it makes sense to me, and
I'm
sticking to it.

Fair enough. A refreshing exposition even if no minds were changed. :-) I
hope you'll reconsider "wacko" in the context of Perelman, but if not, I
have done my best... :-)


No, if he liked doing what he was doing anyway, his thought
processes are seriously flawed if he did not realize he could do
more of it, or do it better, with $1 million in his pocket.

How exactly does the amount of money I have, improve my programming
ability? Or improve my ability to think generally?

Heh! Maimonides was once asked: "You say that the Great One, blessed be
His Name, created man so that man may form profound intellectual
concepts
with his mind. Yet we see that the scholar is only one among many,
perhaps
only one in a generation. Why is it, then, did the Great One, blessed
be
His Name, create so many that do not have the capacity to form great
intellectual concepts with their minds?"

Maimonides gave a long answer, but to avoid boring you, I'll condense
it.
There are two reasons, said the Rambam, for having a world with many,
many
non-scholars:

NOW who's digressing... :-)

1) The scholar, if he had it to do by himself, would be overwhelmed by
just his daily bread. He'd have to learn to sow, cultivate, plant,
reap,
thresh, grind, and bake the wheat, plus make the tools necessary for
these
activities. All this would take an inordinate amount of time, time the
scholar would NOT have available for study. Many non-scholars were
created, concluded Maimonides, so the person capable of great
intellectual
thoughts, the scholar, could eat.


Uh huh... so the academics can leech off the rest of us, huh?
Parasites...:-)


2) Inasmuch as man does not live by bread alone, others not capable of
great intellectual thoughts were created so the scholar would not be
lonely.

And so the parasites would have someone to look down on and feel superior
to, right? :-)


In these two endeavors, money helps.

Sure, but once you have enough, it is enough.


Dr. Perelman has an environment that affords him the necessities (for
him) and it is enough for him. His absence of greed is not a defect;
it is something he simply has no place for.

Absence of greed may not, in Dr Perelman's case, be a defect, but it
certainly is not a blessing.

"While it is no great sin to be poor, it is no great blessing either..."
Tevye, Fiddler on the Roof.

It doesn't mean he is crazy or, given his life's work and the sharing of
it,
that he should be described thus...


I trust you'd agree, for example, that the practice of charity is
meritorious?

Depends how you practice it.

I know a number of quite famous charities that are actually just
profitable
businesses (even though they are stated non-profit) with less than 50% of
the donations reaching the people intended. Fund raising is also a
specialist "consultancy" business with the consultants charging up to 40%
of
what is raised. Personally, I only donate to charities that can publish
their accounts and show that less than 20% is overhead. (Oxfam have 15%,
and
are on my list; the rest are local...I also believe that charity starts
at
home)

Basic rule: one can't practice charity if one has no resources.

Tell that to VSA. It isn't always about money...

To the degree one has ample funds, beyond basic needs, one can improve
the
lot of the less fortunate. In this regard, greed helps and helps
tremendously. There is a French word for one who has the ability to help
his fellow man and refuses... but I don't know what it is.

That would be "Patriot"...

For a Frenchman, of course...

Pete.



.

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