Re: [OT] Iraq


"Charles Hottel" <chottel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:13fd73ccb00a22c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"LX-i" <lxi0007@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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docdwarf@xxxxxxxxx wrote:


<snip>

I am tired of wars. I am tired of our leaders coming to us and saying
"here is why we have to go to war, and here is why it is righteous, and
will be different this time from all those other times when it didn't work
out". I see war as a lose-lose proposition. No side wins, they may lose
less, but they still lose and government reframes it as winning because
they need people to support the next war, and the next.... Without knowing
what the dead could have accomplished it is impossible to really know what
was lost. How many potentially great contributors have been lost to war?
Why can't nations stop acting like little children and act more like
adults? Why can't we talk to each other and be as aggressive at
preventing war as we are at fighting wars?

Given what happened in WWII it is difficult to see how all war could be
abolished. Would Ghandi's method have worked against the nazis? I think
not given their willingness to kill all who opposed them. If we must have
war than I think it should only be for the purpose of saving lives. Only
if more people will be killed by not going to war than by going to war.
Maybe that is naive. Maybe we have to fight for things like freedom. I
don't have and don't know all the answers, but I know I am sick of war and
historically it does not seem to worked out well. We need to somehow
evolve beyond it before our technology has eached the point where we cause
our own extinction, and I think that time is approaching faster than we
might like to think.

Thou shall not kill. Some say that is a mistranslation and should be thou
shall not murder. I wouldn't like to bet my soul on it. I think God is sad
when any human kills another for any reason, even if they are killing
inorder to save lives. Life is precious and we should not be so willing to
waste it. Perhaps I am predjudiced because of recent events in my life. I
hope I can live my life without ever having to kill another person.

Sorry I guess I am rambling. I am in a strange mood after seeing so many
young babies in church today.

Charlie, I think you have expressed what many people (all over the world)
are feeling. And especially people who have to watch their children and
grandchildren being put in harm's way for what can only be construed as
"doubtful" politics.

We are all tired of it.

But what can you do?
Simply roll over and let the strong and ruthless trample the less strong?
How long before the strong and ruthless are knocking on our door?

The powerful nations of the Earth do have a responsibility to the less
powerful, and it is also in their interests to try and maintain some
stability.

Living on a remote island in the South Pacific which has no capability to
defend itself , should the need arise. I sometimes reflect on these things.
I am aware that the fact I am sitting here typing this in English, rather
than Japanese, is because a number of young Americans died at the Coral Sea.

Had the Japanese not been stopped they would have occupied Australia, and NZ
would have been taken with a phone call. I know there would have been fierce
resistance when occupation troops actually arrived, and some of my
compatriots would have taken to the hills and would still be fighting to
this day, but the majority of the population (those who are not fit fighting
men) would have had to accept it. I know that most of the Japanese people
alive today were not even born then, so I don't translate this into an
anti-Japanese prejudice, but I can't help but wonder how different the world
would be if the strong did NOT protect the weak occasionally.

I guess the point is that there are times when violence HAS to be an answer.
(I don't like it, but I am not one to ignore reality...)

I mentioned my father here before. For a part of his life he was a
professional boxer, and he gave me boxing gloves when I was six. He used to
get on his knees and spar with me. By the time I was 10, he was on his feet
and I used to enjoy our sessions very much. I'd hit him with my best shot
and he would laugh and say: "Not like that, you couldn't knock the skin off
a rice pudding..." Then he would show me how I COULD knock the skin off a
rice pudding. Throughout my entire school career, I was never bullied and I
stopped several other kids being bullied as well. Yet I never looked for
trouble. The Old Man's advice (and I have never forgotten it) was: "Don't
ever fight if you can avoid it. Violence is not an answer. Walk away. BUT,
if you absolutely have no choice, then don't stop while you can stand or
see."

(In a professional career that spanned 5 years he was never knocked down,
and held the NZ Middleweight title for 18 months. He never boxed under his
family name because pugilism would have been demeaning to the Old Folks at
Home.:-) I still have his pocket watch with the initials "FF" (his boxing
name "Fred 'Kid' Fisher") engraved on it. My mother gave it to him in 1936.)

New Zealanders are currently deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, and one of
them was recently awarded the Victoria Cross (equivalent to the CMH for
Americans) for carrying his wounded mate several hundred yards to safety
while under intense fire from Taliban. A quiet, unassuming Maori man who
grew up in a rural community on the East Coast of the North Island. Others
are rebuildng schools and providing security for the populace. Even out of
war, some good can come, but the price is very terrible.

So what can we do about it?

I believe we are living in an ideological age. It is about ideas and
ideologies. If someone can be so convinced of an idea that he will drive a
truck loaded with explosives into a market place, destroying himself and
killing and maiming innocent bystanders, then we are unlikely to change his
mind with violence. (However, I do believe that a proper use of violence in
this context is to prevent the truck reaching the market place...)

How do you go about changing people's minds?

When it comes to Religion, it isn't easy. The best you can hope for is to
persuade them to tolerance of other viewpoints and that doesn't seem to be
working very well. While I respect people's rights to their Religious views
(as long as it doesn't harm others) I'd still like to see the world grow out
of it... :-) I believe it will, but it will take probably a thousand
years...

I know (because I live in a society where it works) it IS possible for
people to "get along", and even actually enjoy the differences in culture,
Religion (or lack of it) and viewpoint. But it takes Education and time and
the will to do so.

It also requires that everybody has enough to eat and a reasonable standard
of living.

So, at the moment, the best we can do is assure the fanatics that they will
NOT achieve their aims by violent means, and that means the sacrifices that
we are all tired of seeing and making.

It worked in Northern Ireland. Eventually the IRA were persuaded that
killing and maiming people was losing them more support than it gained and
we now have a peaceful solution. It isn't perfect, but it is way better than
it was.

If fundamental Islamics and Christians were not being indoctrinated in the
politics of hatred, if the more moderate members of both communities could
exercise some influence over what is being preached in mosque and church,
that would be a start.

I don't want to see young people of any race or denomination being
sacrificed in Iraq or Afghanistan, or anywhere else.

Like Charlie, I'm tired of it.

But until minds are changed, it will continue.

I see Education rather than weaponry as the hope for the future. When people
can read, they can get new ideas.

Meantime, whether we like it or not, we need weaponry.

Pete.















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