Re: OT:Thanksgiving

On Dec 22, 12:21 am, "Judson McClendon" <ju...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Pete Dashwood" <dashw...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Judson McClendon" <ju...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Howard Brazee" <how...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Judson McClendon" <ju...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Same thing. You don't have to state that everything in the universe has a
cause, it's a fact. You can't arbitrarily exempt something just because
it might be convenient. :-)

How did you discover that this is a fact?

I majored in Physics, but any physics student knows this.

Does the Bible say everything must have a cause?

Science says that. Plus logic and all human experience. Without causality,
there could be nothing. For anything to exist, there must be some sort of
structure or basis for that existence. Without causality, there is none.

How can I test this hypothesis of yours?

No hypothesis, logically provable from known natural laws.

Physical laws imply causality; without causality, there can be no physical
laws, no energy, no space, no universe, nothing. This alone proves that
no First Cause could be physical. You cannot escape that it is a logical
absolute that if *anything* exists, there *must* be a God, a First Cause,
a Creator Who is external to the universe, and *all things* were created
by that First Cause.

I don't see your argument is any more logical than the argument you
claim people who believe in the Big Bang use. You assume that
everything in this universe has to be created (just because),
therefore there must be something that is outside of this universe
that doesn't have to be created.

Your failure to see is just your failure to see. Doesn't invalidate the logic.
--
Judson McClendon ju...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (remove zero)
Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

So God didn't need to be created because He exists "outside" the Universe and is therefore not subject to causality?

If He's outside it, how can he interact with it? If He interacts with it, how can he NOT be subject to it?

Come on, Pete. You're outside the program you just wrote. How can you
interact with it? Duh!

Because they are in the same room and the program is part of the stuff
in that room.

If Pete was in the garden and the computer was in the office then he
couldn't interact with it.

Stupid argument anyway.


Whether He exists inside it or outside it, where did He come from? Did he spontaneously spring into existence ("I AM...) and how
is that any different from our current understanding of a Big Bang?

He didn't "come from" anywhere, He always was. Things must "come from"
somewhere when they're part of a finite universe. God created the universe,
and isn't part of it. He created the universe's laws, He isn't bound by them.

Stupid people make stupid arguments like that.

In any case there is nothing that supports the view that it is your
'god' that did this. The 'god of the jews' may be just some jumped up
godling (or warlord) that got to write up some dogma making himself
the hero.

Many others have done the same for themselves or others.


If He created Earth and Man so he would have someone to play with, why doesn't He manifest himself more often? (Last recorded
interview 3500 years ago with Moses...)

He does manifest Himself, all the time, to those who know Him.


Yeah, I can do that too, I just know that it is endorphins hitting
particular receptors in the brain and not some magic space pixie.


Why would he create such a vast universe if He is only interested in Man as subjects to give Him adulation? (He could have stopped
at the solar system and got pretty much the same result...)

Who says God didn't create any other intelligent life in the universe? The Bible
doesn't address that issue at all. God did create vast numbers of spirit beings,
like angels.

Yeah, right. And elves and hobbits.


The "logic" you describe above is flawed because it presumes causality (we know there are particles that violate causality and
travel through negative time (pi-mesons and even electrons under certain circumstances...)), and because you evade the question of
God's causality by placing Him outside the framework, exactly as Howard pointed out.

How and why those particles work is not currently understood. Saying they
violate causality at this point makes no sense. Only when you understand
something can you say what the parameters are. Anyway, it's action at a
distance and zero time transfer of information that's at issue, not causality.
--
Judson McClendon ju...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (remove zero)
Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Richard Dawkins - the God Delusion - Chapter 1.1 - A Deeply Religious Non-Believ
    ... Which is a fair summary of the atheist position. ... You say god has always been, ... simply say that the universe has always been ... to find a way of breaking causality within the physical universe. ...
    (uk.religion.christian)
  • Re: OT:Thanksgiving
    ... Who says God didn't create any other intelligent life in the universe? ... God's causality by placing Him outside the framework, ...
    (comp.lang.cobol)
  • Re: Richard Dawkins - the God Delusion - Chapter 1.1 - A Deeply Religious Non-Believ
    ... Which is a fair summary of the atheist position. ... You say god has always been, ... simply say that the universe has always been ... to find a way of breaking causality within the physical universe. ...
    (uk.religion.christian)
  • Re: OT:Thanksgiving
    ... Without causality, there is none. ... laws, no energy, no space, no universe, nothing. ... how can he interact with it? ... God created the universe, ...
    (comp.lang.cobol)
  • Re: The Fuhrer Principle
    ... And by the way, if the universe began as a 'big bang' as genesis states, ... Same old stupid argument from superstitious people: ... Don't you think it is really stupid your prayer fails 99.99% of the time, and when that oddly 0.01% of the time you got what you prayed for and you call it a miracle and thank "God" for answering your prayer. ...
    (rec.martial-arts)
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