Re: OT: Racial superiority / Intelligent design was Re: OT:Thanksgiving


"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:5vnpk7F1n3t84U1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
"Charles Hottel" <chottel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:13pd7071501q989@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"Alistair" <alistair@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:566664b8-5090-424d-ab9e-ecda626b1fb9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On 21 Jan, 14:53, "HeyBub" <hey...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Alistair wrote:
On 20 Jan, 23:30, LX-i <lxi0...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Another benefit from this was increased confidence. You can think
ahead and decide some things, but until you're actually faced with
making a tough decision, you can't say with 100% certainty what you
would do. Going through this gave Abraham the confidence he would
need later in his life.

God may be demanding at times, but He's not insecure. :)

Sacrifice your son to prove you love me sounds like insecurity to me.
Or maybe god is just a big tease?

Try this for spin: How old was Isaac? Roughly. Answer below.

This may provide fodder for who was demanding what of whom.

Isaac was 37. While the story doesn't say directely, Isaac's age can be
calculated by other events. Sarah was 90 when she gave birth to Isaac,
and
127 when she died. Her death coincided with the putative sacrifice of
Isaac.

I guess there must be some reward (longevity) for blind faith.

Faith does not have to be blind. Jesus was not against giving evidence
for faith. He did not say anything against Thomas for not believing
until he could feel the nail holes etc. Of course not everyone could
experience this and thus they had to accept it or not accept it on the
basis of faith. I believe the left brain wants evidence before believing
and the right brain (emotion) more readily accepts things that align with
emotion. I want to believe that I will be reunited with my loved ones so
that emotion makes me want to believe in that. It makes me feel better.
If my faith is misplaced I do not see what harms it does, and in fact it
can have a great positive effect on my mental outlook.

That's a very important point and one of the reasons I don't go through
life expressing my personal belief to all and sundry (except in this
forum, where I'm really just defending what I believe against bigotry, and
anyway, it wasn't I who started the religious posts... :-))

The only saving grace I can see in religious faith, is that it CAN bring
great comfort to many people and can definitely help in hard times. Like
you say, no harm is done... BUT, this is only true at a personal level.
Once the "organization" comes in with the dogmatic party line about what
will and will not be believed, (and any questioning is dismissed as the
work of Satan) things start to deteriorate, and if this progresses to the
point where anyone not in the group is sinning against God and must be
punished, then it becomes dangerous.

I see no need to evangelize atheism; the people capable of having it will
embrace it anyway, and those who can't, won't. I'm OK with this; the
number of people embracing or rejecting it has no influence whatsoever on
what I believe.

I respect totally your right to your personal belief, Charles, and I would
defend that right, whether I agree with you or not.

However I do think that in other cases I need to be wary of this kind of
faith as it can mislead me and lead to hurt. How many people want to
believe in their partner's fidelity so much that they are blind to
evidence of infidelity? How many preachers and/or manipulators use
information about peoples deep emotional desires to obtain followers or
to extract money etc.?

It's certainly true that humans have demonstrated a great propensity ot
believe what we want to believe... :-)

As far as my left brain has been able to acertain there is no scientific
evidence that proves that God exists. I wish that there was such
evidence. I do not understand why God does not provide us that evidence
that certainty. There are a lot of things such as the beauty of nature
etc. that many accept as evidence but it is not to the level of proof
required by the scientific method. Such evidence is always subject to
interpretation by the individual and that interpretation is greatly
influenced by emotion and emotion can easily mislead. In the Old
Testament God spoke directly to some but it doesen't seem to occur at all
now.

I suspect He found such conversations boring and gave up on them... :-)

It would be nice if we all could get an inspiring lecture from Him from
time to time that gave us some real proof.

A lecture? Why not a conversation?

Many religious people would counter that God speaks to them every day...
On the corner of my street there is a Salvation Army church (I think they
do a great job and support them as much as I can) and they have a little
board outside the church designed to catch the eye of people passing down
the main road. I am always amused at the little aphorisms they post there
and mentally formulate my own rejoinders to them. "If you feel detached
from God, who moved?" (that would be all us retinas... :-) no wonder the
faithful aren't seeing so well...). Point is that one of the signs of a
"healthy" relationship with God, is a feeling of closeness and ability to
converse with Him. (there is a name for such a state in Pyschology; it's
called "delusional"... :-))

I want to believe that there is a loving God that cares for me and for us
all, but I also need to be aware of how that could leave me open to
possible manipulation by people with an agenda. If I have a belief that
is not proven as fact, then there is always some probablity that it could
be wrong. If there is new evidence that contradicts my belief then I
need to be willing to reevaluate that belief. I need to know how certain
I am about each belief. I need to know what I believe and why I believe
it.

You summed it up perfectly in that last sentence. That is the very nub of
"belief". Even attempting to come to grips with that can make you feel
better. You may never get completely satisfactory answers, but knowing you
gave it your best shot, provides a degree of satisfaction. The alternative
is to accept a complete set of someone else's answers, by "faith". For an
enquiring mind, that it is not an attractive option. :-)

If I do not really understand these things about my beliefs then I am
more open to manipulation. If I do understand them then I am less likely
to fall for the 72 virgins scam and I am less likely to follow a leader
who wants me to murder or to do something else incompatible with my
beliefs.

From reading the above, I reckon you're in very good shape, Charlie... :-)

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."


I think we agree more than we disagree. Anyway God likes people who are hot
or cold better than those who are lukewarm.

I too have had unpleasant experiences with organized religion. They use
guilt and other things to manipulate people for various purposes especially
to get money or obtain follwers.


.

Relevant Pages