Re: Some More Background on St. Paul

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:46:31 +1300, "Pete Dashwood"
<dashwood@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



"SkippyPB" <swiegand@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:26:03 +1300, "Pete Dashwood"
<dashwood@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



"HeyBub" <heybub@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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SkippyPB wrote:
I should have included this in my post to HeyBub. Sorry. I'm so slow
sometimes.

Saul (as he was known before he converted) was born into a well-to-do
Jewish family of Tarsus (a city and a large district in Mersin
Province, Turkey), the son of a Roman citizen, was sent to Jerusalem
to be trained in the famous rabbinical school headed by Gamaliel.

Here, in addition to studying the Law and the Prophets, he learned a
trade, as was the custom. Young Saul chose the trade of tent-making.
Although his upbringing was orthodox, while still at home in Tarsus he
had come under the liberalizing Hellenic influences which at this time
had permeated all levels of urban society in Asia Minor. Thus the
Judaic, Roman, and Greek traditions and cultures all had a part in
shaping him, who was so different in status and temperament from the
humble fishermen of Jesus' initial band of disciples. His missionary
journeys were to give him the flexibility and the deep sympathy that
made him the ideal human instrument for preaching Christ's Gospel of
world brotherhood.

Ah, right. Thanks for refreshing my memory. With Paul's Greek and Roman
background, he would have no conceptual problem with the notion of a god
walking around on earth, a feat clearly impossible from a Jewish
perspective. Also the notion of a god siring a human or semi-divine
child
has ample precedent in the religions prevalent in Paul's native lands -
concepts similarily unthinkable to the Jews.

As I may have said before, Jews then, and now, have little trouble with
anything Jesus is reported to have said or done. Paul, however, is a
different matter altogether...

As an aside, we do have a report, probably aphocryphal, that Paul
flunked
out of Gamaliel's yeshiva.

Of course Paul is not the only Jew that other Jews have scratched their
heads over. Spinoza was one. Then there was Joseph ben Matthias.

When new of the revolt in Judea reached Nero in A.D. 66, the emperor was
enjoying a season of games and hunting in southern Greece. Nero promptly
dispatched one of his sycophants, Vespasian, to settle the hash.
Vespasian, whose only previous military victory was conquering the Isle
of
Mann, assembled an enormous army and set out for the troubled region,
collecting more forces as he went. He reached the northern Galilee in
the
early spring.

The northern Jewish command was lead by the aforementioned Matthias.
Vespasian laid siege to the town of Jotapata, built enormous earthworks,
towers, and artillery, somewhat akin to attacking Giggleswick with the
Afrika Corps. After fighting valiantly for about an hour, Matthais and a
dozen or so of his followers took refuge in a nearby cave. There,
Matthais
convinced his band to commit suicide by the drawing of lots. By complete
chance, Matthais himself drew the last lot and lost no time in
surrendering.

Vespasian took a liking to the young Matthais and had him accompany the
expedition. Shortly after the sack of Jerusalem, Nero died and Vespasian
was recalled to Rome to assume the mantle of Emperor, leaving his son,
Titus, in charge of mopping up. Matthais went with Vespasian to Rome
and,
believe it or not, Vespasian adopted Matthais.

In gratitude, Matthais Latinized his given name and took the family name
of his adoptive father. Under his new name of Flavius Josephus, he began
to write the history of his interesting life.
Fascinating...

I never knew Josephus was a Jew.

I also have severe reservations about Paul (aka Saul of Tarsus). My
problem
with him is nothing to do with religion; it is simply based on his
observable behaviors. To build an entire religion on the actions of this
man
seems to me to be risky in the extreme.

Pete.

The "entire" Catholic religion was not built solely on St. Paul's
writings. St. Peter and the other apostles as well as gospel writers
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John had just as much, if not more, influence.
St. Paul was a profuse writer and converted many thousands of people,
both Jews and Gentiles, to Christianity. True that his early life was
distasteful but it only goes to show that nearly anyone can find God
and have a 180 degree change in their life.

But he was no less manic, vicious, and obsessive AFTER his catharsis on the
road to Damascus, than he was BEFORE it. He just directed his focus in a
different direction. When he was persecuting the Christians he was a
***, but when he does the same behaviours promoting Christianity, he
becomes a Saint...

Sorry, Steve, it doesn't work for me. :-)

Pete.


Pete I don't agree with your assertion that St. Paul's attitude and
behavior was just as bad after he converted as it was before he
converted. Here's an excerpt from a letter he wrote to the Galatians:

?The fact is, brothers, and I want you to realize this, the Good News
I preached is not a human message that I was given by men, it is
something I learned only through a revelation of Jesus Christ. You
must have heard of my career as a practicing Jew, how merciless I was
in persecuting the Church of God, how much damage I did to it, how I
stood out among other Jews of my generation, and how enthusiastic I
was for the traditions of my ancestors.

Then God, who had specially chosen me while I was still in my mother?s
womb, called me through his grace and chose to reveal his Son in me,
so that I might preach the Good News about him to the pagans. I did
not stop to discuss this with any human being, nor did I go up to
Jerusalem to see those who were already apostles before me, but I went
off to Arabia at once and later went straight back from there to
Damascus. Even when after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit
Cephas and stayed with him for fifteen days, I did not see any of the
other apostles; I only saw James, the brother of the Lord, and I swear
before God that what I have just written is the literal truth. After
that I went to Syria and Cilicia, and was still not known by sight to
the churches of Christ in Judaea, who had heard nothing except that
their one-time persecutor was now preaching the faith he had
previously tried to destroy; and they gave glory to God for me.?

He was a tireless preacher and writer, but to compare his before
conversion life to his after is like comparing night to day. He
realized how much of a "***" (to use your word) he was before hand
and took great pains to atone for those actions.

Each day he aimed ever higher; each day he rose up with greater ardor
and faced with new eagerness the dangers that threatened him. He
summed up his attitude in the words: "I forget what is behind me and
push on to what lies ahead."

When he saw death imminent, he bade others share his joy: "Rejoice and
be glad with me!" And when danger, injustice and abuse threatened, he
said: "I am content with weakness, mistreatment and persecution."
These he called the weapons of righteousness, thus telling us that he
derived immense profit from them.

Thus, amid the traps set for him by his enemies, with exultant heart
he turned their every attack into a victory for himself; constantly
beaten, abused and cursed, he boasted of it as though he were
celebrating a triumphal procession and taking trophies home, and
offered thanks to God for it all: "Thanks be to God who is always
victorious in us!"

This is why he was far more eager for the shameful abuse that his zeal
in preaching brought upon him than we are for the most pleasing
honours, more eager for death than we are for life, for poverty than
we are for wealth; he yearned for toil far more than others yearn for
rest after toil. The one thing he feared, indeed dreaded, was to
offend God; nothing else could sway him. Therefore, the only thing he
really wanted was always to please God.

Regards,
////
(o o)
-oOO--(_)--OOo-

SAM: "What's shaking Norm?"
NORM: "All four cheeks and a couple of chins."
--From U.S. TV Show, "Cheers"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Steve
.