Re: Limited ;) marketing idea

From: Alan Garny (someone_at_somewhere.com)
Date: 12/03/03 

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 08:16:04 -0000

"Thomas J. Theobald" <ttheobald2003@nospamplease.msn.com> wrote in message
news:3fcd7730$1@newsgroups.borland.com...
> > You should know that if you want to learn the ins and outs of Delphi (or
> any
> > other programming environment for that matter), then the Personal
edition
> is
> > completely useless. Have another look at the features matrix and you
will
> > see that you are completely out of line:
> > http://www.borland.com/delphi/pdf/del7_feamatrix.pdf.
>
> I started with the Standard edition in '95 and started a study group on
> CompuServe to learn the ins and outs of it.
>
> Did a pretty fair job at that time, as I recall. Can't see why it
wouldn't
> stand up now.

I guess it all depends on what you want to teach them. Personally, I
wouldn't see any use for Delphi without ModelMaker, for instance. I
personally don't use it, but in a teaching context, I believe it's essential
to have something like that. I am not even talking about some components
that are not part of the Personal edition and which I find useful (frames
come to mind). Also, the source code for the VCL is not included, something
which would be very useful to have for anyone who wants to further his/her
knowledge of Delphi. Etc., etc.

> > Haven't you read what I have said in my message? My old engineering
school
> > has agreements with Microsoft, Cisco, Oracle, etc. Now tell me which are
> the
> > leading companies? Borland??
>
> Yes, it has agreements with MS, Cisco, Oracle - have you investigated
those
> agreements? I'd buy you a beer if they were found to be something other
> than site licensing by your school on the educational programs of the
> companies you mention. Profit and Loss is involved here, and the
> educational editions are not insignificant to that calculation for any
> corporation.

I don't think that this matters in the long term. The end result of the
policy adopted by Microsoft & co. is that the students of my old school will
know their products ins and outs when they graduate. That alone should be a
very good incentive for Borland.

> > Again, out of line. You don't get the trust that Microsoft, Oracle,
Cisco,
> > etc. have in a matter of months. Let's be realistic. You have to gain
that
> > trust from your customers. Surely, the way Borland treats academia is
not
> > the way forward!
>
> How does Borland treat acedemia? By making available versions of their
> products that are discounted 60% or more. I'd call that a pretty good
deal.
> This is not an either-or, and Borland is not mistreating anyone.

Personally, I don't. Here, at Oxford University, you can get any Microsoft
software for the cost of the media. Therefore, if the product you are
interested requires 1 CD-Rom, then you pay £8.51 (~$15), if it is 2 CD-Roms,
then it's £12.77 (~$22). In comparison, I had to pay £359 (~$618) for Delphi
7 Enterprise, which is a VERY good price compared with the retail price, but
ridiculously expensive in comparison with what I paid for VS.NET... So,
sorry, but in the end Borland IS mistreating academia... whether you like it
or not...

> > > The testimony of some students is not compelling enough to generate a
> lot
> > of
> > > sales.
> >
> > Your views are too short sighted. Don't just look at the short term
> > situation, think ahead. That's what big companies do and if you look at
> > Microsoft, they seem to be doing a very good job at it! Don't get me
> wrong,
> > I am not endorsing them at all. As a matter of fact, I have been using
> > Borland products for about 15 years and I have no intention of changing.
I
> > just wish that they had been more pro-active in the academic world, as
> > Microsoft & co. have been.
>
> I'm well aware of the long-term effects of having vast quantities of
workers
> available that can use one's products. However, I don't think you're
seeing
> the short-term impact that I'm trying to describe. When your group is
> answerable for a certain percentage of a corporation's revenue, you don't
> simply give up a chunk of it to see a questionable impact on the positive
> side four or five years down the road.

Well, I would think that's what Microsoft and co. have done... otherwise
they wouldn't be leading the market in their respective field...

> And besides, as I mentioned before - Personal edition is quite handy.
> Inexpensive, to boot.

That's your view. I personally don't think it would do the job for me if I
had to teach a computing course on Delphi.

> You might also try calling a local Borland sales rep - I seem to recall
they
> had site licensing available for schools, though that may not have been in
> the US.

This is what I did and they got me in touch with a company that deals with
academic institutions, so I got the best deal possible (see above).

> > > The reason companies like MS and Oracle do this stuff is (a) they can
> > afford
> > > to sell it on the cheap to these institutions, and (b) it creates a
> > > malleable workforce that can be hired, and their salespeople can point
> to
> > > that as a selling point.
> >
> > Sure, they can afford. No doubt about it. Yet, they started like
Borland,
> > i.e. small. They just happened to be willing to take risks and whether
you
> > like it or not, that has paid off.
>
> They did not take these risks when they were small. They don't take them
> now. Much of what you're referring to occurs because the institutions in
> question site-license their goods. I don't know if you recall, but
> Microsoft products were sold at an educational rate similar to Borland's -
> and still are
>
(http://www.programmersparadise.com/Publisher.pasp?txtPublisherID=M47&txtAca
> demic=Y).

Yes, of course, but again, for me an academic, it doesn't matter what the
deal with Microsoft is all about. All I know, at the end of the day, is that
to get a copy of a Microsoft software costs me next to nothing (just the
cost of the media in fact), while it's far from being the case with Borland
products.

I guess you are trying to look at all of this from a company's point of view
, which is fair enough, but I am on the other side of the fence and what I
want is something that costs me as little as possible. In that respect,
Microsoft wins by a long way, and believe me I wish Borland did instead!

> > > While (b) would be useful for Borland, (a) is probably not applicable.
> >
> > (a) is not applicable, because Borland doesn't have the guts. Their
> > marketing strategy has always been crap in my opinion, and I don't see
it
> > changing in the near future.
>
> (a) It's not a question of guts, what you're referring to is a question of
> wallet depth - which, even in the cases you describe at your engineering
> school, even those corporations don't wish to explore.
>
> You'll pardon me for pointing out that your opinion of a marketing
strategy
> is hardly expert.

I don't have to pardon you, because I am not, indeed, a marketing person at
all.

I am just looking at all of this from an academic's point of view. All I am
saying, therefore, is that no matter what the marketing strategy is,
Borland's one is bad compared to that of Microsoft. Now, you tell me that
Borland doesn't have the same wallet depth. Well, sure, it doesn't, but...
then again, the end user doesn't care about that...

Just look at the facts, Borland has great products, yet they always seem to
struggle to stay in business... Surely that shows there is something wrong
with their marketing strategy...

    Alan.

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