Core Constituency (and other ramblings)

From: Dennis Landi (none[at]none)
Date: 03/04/04 

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 01:19:13 -0500

Just got back for JK's presentation in DC... Here is some feed back.

General Positives and comments up front:
a) The Delphi 8 IDE is as slick and professional as ever. I happen to like
the new design overall; and love the new component palette and data
explorer. (Its clear other's don't prefer it.) JK says the IDE totally
customizable.
b) The ability to fire up D8.NET and just start coding in theVCL framework
ala' D/Win32 is pretty damned convincing. For most stalwart Delphi
developers who need a reason to stay in Delphi on the .NET platform, I D8
delivers the goods from a pure VCL perspective. You want VCL? You got it.
c) I *suspect* the ECO is a KILLER APP. But I am not sure. I will most
likely upgrade to D8/Architect just to delve into the ECO side of things and
try to see just what exactly it can do. But my gut tells me this is also a
piece of technology still in rapid transition; yet to become what it will
ultimately be...
d) The Delphi*/Asp.NET and Web Services was pretty impressive. But knowing
something about web development as I do I wonder how flexible this solution
really is. Does it integrate into other best of breed web development
products like Dreamweaver? How would one plug Flash technology into this
web applicaton framework for instance?

e) I think I will get D8/Architect now and begin playing with it - just
because I see enough intriguing elements to make it an interesting
proposition. But I don't expect maturity or focus for this product to
begin emerging before LongHorn/64 ships, so for myself, this would just be
personal research with an old beloved tool undergoing a transition....

John, thanks for coming all the way from California (if that was your point
of origin today). Sorry it was so damned hot in the conference room. I was
hot so you must have been dying since you were doing all the work.

What I enjoyed mostly about JK's presentation was John himself. He exudes a
certain hard-working-ness and commitment to Delphi that definitely comes
through.

Some criticism. I swear the demo you gave of the D7 to DfN datagrid demo
was the same Camtasia demo you have posted on the Borland site.... The
Asp.NET demo was also like the BDNTv Camstasia demo, except that you
actually messed around a bit more with looking at the generated source code
and swapped in a different ASP control wizard, etc. which as all "seat of
the pants"and a little more interesting. So, the problem is simply that I
have already seen those demoes on Borland's website.... It certainly
appeared that every one else in the meeting hadn't so I guess "it's just
me"....

I suspect the ECO demo was the same as the BDNTv demo, but that link is down
right at this moment, so I can't verify my memory with a fresh look.... I
was frustrated with the ECO demo. It was too basic. I guess that all the
D8.NET demoes just felt too basic to me for a single reason: it was all
just your standard DB Application stuff.

Just out of curiosity, is this it?

    A) Is this what Borland believes is its core constintuency - DB App
Developers?
    B) Asp.NET demo was basically DB app in a browser. Admittedly there was
some non-trivial *bitchin* technology behind that demo, and the "undelete"
functionality in a browser-based datagrid was rather impressive, but the
focus once again was DB application programming... Is this it? DB
applications? Does Borland still see this as the primary interest of it
core constintuency; or does Borland still think that it core competency is
DB programming?

Here is why I have a problem with this... My feeling is that the Delphi
Developers who have still stuck with Borland up till now, will have
essentially built up approx NINE years of Delphi experience. Most of us at
this point are, if not out-right gurus in our various niches, then at least
experts. How many of us still need to see demoes of TTable or "dataset"
dropped on a form and hook up to another dataset? I mean, come on!
Really. My gut feeling, is the "we" as a group have got "databases" (in the
Delphi/VCL context) nailed...

I would rather see different presentations showing what Delphi 8 can do
beyond dropping dataset on a form to produce a data aware Win-Form or Web
page....

An example:

Here is a quote ( http://tinyurl.com/2l353 ) from Brion fresh from BorCon
where he reported that

     "ECO uses interfaces to work with any visual component.
     So if I want to, I can use Raize or InfoPower controls
     (or the .NET equivalent) to present data."

ECO uses interfaces to work with any component? Now *that* tidbit is really
intriguing. I wonder exactly how that works (????). I would love to see a
live demonstration of that; instead of just hooking up couple of datasets.
I think that ECO could be a killer application; but somehow I need more info
to really get a bead on it. I was pleased to see that you could point to
MS SQL Server as ECO Persistent Repository; because I can see possibilities
for working this into a larger framework in an already existing enterprise
with already existing data repositories. A demo, or diagrams and slides of
such the larger ramifications of ECO would be very compelling. Yes, a talk
on the *ramificicatons* of ECO and how it impacts the daily lives of the
Delphi Developer might sell more copies of D8Architects than hooking up a
couple of dataset and hitting F9.

Over-all I felt the present D8 presentation was just "dumbed down" too much.
I think advanced demoes are in order, because the delphi customer-base that
still exists are EXPERTS, for the most part.

Who are we? Those of us who still use Delphi professionally? Have we
progressed beyond dropping db components on a form and hitting F9? What do
you use Delphi for? How much effort and brain power do you expend on a day
to day basis on db development issues versus other technology issues in your
business domain? Who still grapples with databases as if it were a
difficult technology to master?

OTOH, what to put in a 3 hour presentation demonstrating something as vast
as Delphi? Yes, time is certainly precious isn't it? Get rid of the
newbie demoes, especially in a Delphi SIG of all places...

Thanks.

-d

Relevant Pages

  • Re: I really hate .NET especially inside Delphi
    ... Because its not a reason for Visual ... Delphi and expanded. ... With ECO a whole new way of creating software can be pioneered with DevCo ... "enhancements" you posted awhile back and I'm not impressed. ...
    (borland.public.delphi.non-technical)
  • Re: Vote for it: ECO Visual Studio plugin
    ... I won't get any further down into this part with you, because we are both agreed that if evaluated in terms of existing ECO users, there's a logic behind continued C# support. ... But if you expect to invest most of your $$ into building and growing developer tools such as Delphi, you have to have product differentiators that are available exclusively in your developer tool. ... And when you tell me that Delphi "can't compete on .net, it's just that simple" how can you deny you're flying the white flag? ...
    (borland.public.delphi.non-technical)
  • Re: Roadmap Review - My Questions
    ... ECO is somewhat expensive and I have reservations about not having ... Chrome offers additional value above and beyond Delphi for .NET. ... "Again it can be a productivity issue - one already knows the VCL, ... Delphi for .Net, for those preferring C#, ECO is just as much an advantage ...
    (borland.public.delphi.non-technical)
  • Re: Vote for it: ECO Visual Studio plugin
    ... ECO confined to Delphi. ... CodeGear is no longer producing a C# IDE/product. ... why is anyone BOTHERING to compete with it. ...
    (borland.public.delphi.non-technical)
  • Re: Chrome - competition for Borland?
    ... > (unlike a Delphi.Net port). ... > bullet successor to Delphi, but just a look-alike from afar. ... >> Chrome won´t have a VCL, so it is only an option for full rewrites ... loose marketshare, but a bunch of them can make a difference (i.e. ECO, ...
    (borland.public.delphi.non-technical)