Re: VCL -> XAML or VCL -> WinForms -> XAML

From: Bruce McGee (bmcgee_at_glooscap.com)
Date: 03/09/04 

Date: 9 Mar 2004 12:08:14 -0800

Brian Moelk wrote:

> > I'm comfortable with the VCL for Win32 and Delphi 8's VCL
> > applications are arguably more flexible than a WinForms application
> > (VCL app can use WinForms components).
>
> I've heard of the argument of more flexibility; I'd just like to hear
> the actual argument. <g>

The fact that you can use WinForms components on a VCL form but can't
use VCL components on a WinForms form (at least not easily) makes VCL
forms more flexible. To me, anyway. Then you have Frames (not the
same as User Controls), DataModules and BDP. I'm not really sure if a
TForm's properties are more useful than a TWinForm's.

> > These .Net specifics translate directly to any
> > other .Net environment (and vice versa), so I'm not concerned about
> > either my marketability or bringing people with .Net experience up
> > to speed.
>
> Not so sure about that. Danny's article basically says that VCL.NET
> is only interesting for Delphi developers and leverages constructs
> within the Delphi language that are awkward and unintuitive to use in
> other .NET languages.

I'm not sure if Danny meant that VCL properties would be unfamiliar or
if Delphi specific features like virtual constructors or TStream (not
to be confused with System.IO.Stream) make IL that doesn't translate
perfectly into C#.

Either way, this isn't what I meant. While some of our library code
will be single source between Win32 and .Net, entire projects won't be.
If I'm using something that's .Net specific (it only makes sense,
right?), like new DirectX extensions, System.XML, PInvoke or (heaven
forbid) GDI+, these .Net skills are portable to any other .Net language.

And, come to think of it, I will be doing at least some C# development.

> > And I don't have much sympathy for the argument that Delphi doesn't
> > have as big a lead over C# as it did over VB6.
>
> Hmm...there are two ways I can interpret this:
>
> 1) you agree that Delphi doesn't have as big a lead over other .NET
> languages, but don't think it's a significant issue; or
> 2) you still think Delphi has a big lead over other .NET languages
>
> If #1 is what you mean, then we can agree to disagree and we'll see
> what the market does.
>
> If #2, I'd like to hear why you still think Delphi has a big lead
> over other .NET languages. Honestly, I'm not trying to pick a fight,
> I'm trying to understand why choosing Delphi for .NET makes sense.

Probably safest to interpret that in a way that's less harsh than how I
phrased it. Sorry about that. It's kind of a sore point. You should
see how I react to "Delphi is dead" and "might as well go Microsoft"
arguments.

All other things being equal, I agree that Delphi 8 doesn't have nearly
the lead over C# that Delphi for Win32 had over VB. Microsoft has done
a good job with both Visual Studio and C# and there are more
improvements on the way. Good on them.

That said, I would still place Delphi ahead of C# (just talking about
.Net here) on technical merits, database support, maturity of the class
library, the overall mood of the community (not based on non-tech, to
be sure) and, IMO, a better track record on development tools.

The fact that I need to do both Win32 and .Net development and want to
reuse as much library code as possible between the two knocks it out of
the park for me. If you know of anything else that comes close, I'd
love to hear about it.

Then (and only then) there is my admitted preference for Borland tools
in general and Delphi in particular.

I have a whole raft of other reasoning, but these are the core of my
argument and they address the issue of Delphi's lead (or not) over C#.

> > So there would have to be a really compelling case to make me choose
> > WinForms or C# for an application. Not the other way around.
>
> Interesting....I come at it from a different direction than you.
>
> Beyond loyalty to Borland, Delphi and the desire for a competitive
> market place, I'm not sure what other reasons I have to adopt Delphi
> for .NET. ECO is the only thing I can see and but I'm quite content
> with third party solutions here. I'll probably wait for Delphi 9 and
> reevaluate then; as it stands now, Borland has to do more.

I definitely have a pro Borland bias (You might have noticed), but
it's a well earned bias. It definitely isn't based on marketing
(apologies to all the fine people in the Marketing dept) or the quality
of the swag at the last BorCon.

Even with the sometimes bumpy ride, they have always had the best tools
for the development that I do. Period. this covers consulting/custom
development, tools (my preference) and shrink wrapped software.

Ultimately, this isn't an emotional decision. It's a business one. If
they stop delivering the best tool for the job, I stop using them.
Even if reluctantly.

I also don't completely trust Microsoft, but maybe that's just me.

> > So far, I haven't seen it.
>
> Perception is a wonderful thing isn't it. <g>

Believe me, we've been looking. .Net is a big move for us and it's
important to be sure we're making the right decisions for the right
reasons. That whole lemming thing is fun for a while, but there isn't
much future in it. So, I'm open to any compelling arguments for not
using Borland tools.

Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software

Relevant Pages

  • Delphi 8 info
    ... I went to a Borland 'sneak preview' on Delphi.NET today, ... Delphi.NET has two parts - the first I'll call 'Winforms' because I don't ... Winforms forms.The VCL.NET side of things presents a normal Delphi sort of ... IDE appears to have those annoying self-hiding and popping-out object ...
    (borland.public.delphi.non-technical)
  • Re: Captain Jakes Top Ten List of what Id like to see in thenextversionofDelphi
    ... MFC and WinForms do not. ... For the Delphi developer, there is less of an argument. ... How many VCL Win32 customers have been asking their vendors to support ... Delphi developers, moving their existing Win32 application to .NET ...
    (borland.public.delphi.non-technical)
  • Re: Delphi 8 info
    ... I was just going on what the Borland ... You will be able to use Winforms controls on VCL.NET ... compared to the free floating form in Delphi. ... You can link all of your Delphi code into exe. ...
    (borland.public.delphi.non-technical)
  • Re: The New Roadmap
    ... WinForms is not my first choice for .Net UI apps. ... for the VCL since Delphi 1. ... VCL in both places where it makes sense. ... Why would you ever *need* to write a .NET GUI app? ...
    (borland.public.delphi.non-technical)
  • Re: VCL.NET revisited...
    ... That's probably because I *am* an existing Delphi developer (among ... WinForms but I'm hard put to blame all the sluggish response of .NET ... Adding Avalon support isn't what I had in mind for new WinForms ... The .Net framework, yes, but not WinForms. ...
    (borland.public.delphi.non-technical)