Re: 64-bit Windows for AMD 64 is here...

From: aLBi (why_do_we_at_need.this)
Date: 03/14/04 

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:43:40 +0000

>I like to keep my options open too, but why would this help you? IOW,
what would 64-bit do for you that you can't do with 32-bit now? How much
content do you manage? Is your content management system performance
maxed out?

I don't get it how can you use the word "now" in a fast changing and
agressive market like this. Competition is tough enough to get a company
out of bussiness in a month. So, when we're talking about the 64bit
adoption we are concerned if we can earn our living two years from now.
Nobody would like to spend many programming hours and resources on the
development of an application that will be old and *NOT upgradeable* (a
dead end) in just 2 years (let alone that software require more than two
years to develop, so you're giving birth to a dead child).

>IMO, it's very important for *some* server applications, not all.

8 additional registers, unlimited memory allocation size, facility to
process in a single instruction cycle data twice bigger than a 32bit
processor will most surely bring a 20%+ performance advantage to an
appication. Since competition is everywhere and restless to say the
least, that 20% is enough to label your product "second hand". Plus, it
can be called "based on old technology", and the competitors' marketeers
will shout it loud.

>> .NET not be a "good" choice for us because we don't trust .NET in the
>> case of perfomance and stability. It seems that ASPNET ist not right
>> solution for us.

I'm sorry to disagree with you Nils, but ASP.NET is actually the only
perfect thing .NET. Its much faster that ASP, PHP and the like because it
compiles to native code after the first execution, while other server-
side scripting languages remain just "interpreted scripts".

>Indeed, it may not be a good choice for you. Have you tested its
>performance/stability?

While I've had nightmares with .NET Compact Framework, the Desktop .NET
is the most stable platform that I've ever worked on. However, its
performance is simply unacceptable for a market where reviewers use the
words "trashes" and "puts to shame" to refer to a 10% performance
advantage of a product over another.

>> In the past we have make a lot of bad experience with Java, this will
>> influence our meaning about systems like .NET and server applications
>> (not about D8 this is good)

Nils, you should give .NET a test drive. .NET is not Java because Sun had
to consider many issues (the primary being cross-platform compatibility)
when they built the Java SDK. While .NET is a robust platform on top of
*Windows* that is totally commited on improving the technologies of WinNT
rather than make everything from the ground up (what Java has to do).

>> We sure that in the next 1-2 years the 32bit world will replaced by the
>> 64bit world. Also for IIS/ISAPI and Apache/DSO.
>
>Maybe, maybe not. I do think it is coming, but the way it looks like
>it's coming is by leveraging the bredth/depth of 32-bit applications.

The problem is not that we'll have to wait 2-3 years for Delphi 64bit to
come (it would be a problem, but nevermind). The biggest problem is that
it does not appear on the horizont. Starting a new Win32 project in
Delphi is like having started in 1994 a new project in Turbo Pascal.
Totally pointless.

>> For this we looking for a nativ solution.
>
>Native 32-bit works well for me. Again, I'd love to see a 64-bit Delphi
>compiler, but the current 32-bit one can build scalable servers today.

"Today"!!! Can you build a "scalable server" in a day?

--------------------

By the beginning of 2006 both AMD and Intel shall have ceased production
of 32bit processors. With companies like Ulead and Epic optimizing their
products for 64bit we can be sure that Adobe, Jasc, Electronic Arts and
the like will all follow (btw: PSP is built in MSVC so all they need is a
recompilation in VS Whidbey). Also, with Microsoft and Intel leading the
pack, all major programming platforms shall include full support for
64bit. So, makes sense that a 32bit version of Longhorn shall never be
released. And like the Win16 subsystem in WinNT, the 32bit subsystem of
Longhorn will be very fragile and limited in functionality. The only way
for Delphi programs to stay competitive will be the .NET. However, do
over at C|NET and find software made in .NET. They have less than 10.000
downloads. .NET is very slow for almost everything a desktop needs. Among
its most notable weaknesses are the loading, image editing, file
allocation table access and long operations on simple data types (you can
forget increasing an integer from 0 to 1 bilion in 2 seconds, rather,
make that a minute).

However, for server and bussiness applications the .NET is almost ideal.
I don't doubt that I myself will use it at some point. I'm looking
forward to finding the right circumstances to use it. Why? Because Visual
Studio .NET 2003 is the most remarkable programming environment I have
ever seen. I cannot imagine what else would I need from my environment.
And not only is it stable and feature complete, but also virtually all
3rd party products designed to boost your productivity offer integration
with VS .NET. Visual Studio is a sure bet, because its what the 220
bilion $ corporation is also betting on.
Even if Borland will work hard to match the productivity of VS .NET, it
will always be chasing Microsoft, wich is not an easy task. And with
companies betting their "everything" on .NET and competing with MS will
happen the same thing that happened to companies betting everything on
Windows and competing with MS. That is, MS will bend the platform to its
own needs, will release less beta versions of the .NET SDK so that other
companies will be unable to match in time the next release of VS .NET and
will make some technologies unavailable (ex. the .NET Compact Framework,
and in the future maybe usage of the advanced features of Longhorn and
its WinFS Storage etc.).

One last thing: Noone knows what the next version of Delphi will be.
However, we have full description of the improvements in Visual Studio
Whidbey and the version after it (can't call it 2005 cause it will take a
little longer to be released). Maybe Whidbey will not be released in
2004. Maybe Longhorn will not be released in 2006. Maybe Microsoft will
go badly out of schedule with its products. But, for the developers using
Microsoft's technology, now that Delphi depends on Microsoft too, those
developers can be sure that they will never be left behind, because
Delphi can't get ahead of Microsoft's plans. Borland had the chance to
attack Microsoft from a side it was unprotected, native code compilation
(MFC has always been behind in every single aspect compared to VCL and
the WinSDK is just too hard to scale with nowadays' huge projects).
Borland wasn't willing to take that risk. Well, I hope Borland survives
and Microsoft goes down (MS is too dangerous for mankind), but can you
imagine a way this might happen?

I found it hard, 't was hard to find.
Oh well, whatever, nevermind.

--- posted by geoForum on http://delphi.newswhat.com

Relevant Pages

  • Re: VB6, VB2005, or Something Else?
    ... I once thought the same way, that Microsoft could have done better, let's say like Borland did with Delphi. ... OO and structure changes could easily have been added without breaking existing language features. ... I understand that you've got burned by the VB.NET changes, but what I don't understand is that you are moving completely to Delphi. ...
    (microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion)
  • Re: My rant about the "throw out delphi and re-write it in C#" crowd.
    ... fired across the bow of the Microsoft C++ products were AWESOME. ... Borland was fearless in putting itself out there and asking developers ... Programmers traditionally defied conventional ... don't recall seeing a Delphi ad in those for years. ...
    (borland.public.delphi.non-technical)
  • Embrace and Extend, Borland Style...
    ... Embrace and Extend, Borland Style... ... understandably large amount of time talking about the Microsoft .Net ... and will soon be deployed in Delphi 8 for the .Net Framework. ... Galileo is Borland's next generation IDE that builds on the code base of ...
    (borland.public.delphi.non-technical)
  • Borland and the Sub-Enterprise
    ... Delphi Professional competes with Microsoft Visual Studio. ... Borland clearly had the technical lead. ...
    (borland.public.delphi.non-technical)
  • Re: 64-bit Windows for AMD 64 is here...
    ... I saw that you favour Whidbey. ... Can't you see, I'm favouring Microsoft ... Because Borland does not plan to release a 64bit Delphi compiler. ...
    (borland.public.delphi.non-technical)