Re: Delphi 8 vs Visual Studio

From: David Smith (david_at_nowhere.com)
Date: 06/26/04 

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 17:44:04 +0300

Brian Moelk wrote:
>
>>>
>>>Ask the students which language/tools they would want to learn.
>>
>>Here you are very wrong.
>
> What am I wrong about? What exactly do you think I am saying?

Aren't you telling above that professors should start asking the student
what they want to learn?

>>If somebody in the university level starts to
>>teach what students want, then they are truly on the wrong path.
>
> Why? Is it possible that some students will actually learn more if they are
> taught things that they want to learn?

It's the teachers job to figure out the study plans. They have the
correct education and experience to do it. That's their job. And to
little exaggerate, students don't know anything. They are there to
learn. From my own experience, tho whole thing wouldn't work if students
decided the study plans. But hopefully the two things meet.

This is quite off-topic and if our views are this far apart, then I
think it's quite useless to debate this further.

>>E.g. in my university there was a database course, where we were using a
>>small, fast and SQL-standard compliant DB, but some students started to
>>complain that why aren't we using e.g. Oracle. As our professor told
>>them there are very many educational and practical reasons to use the
>>one we were.
>
> And that's fine, each professor will have their reasons for what they teach
> and how they teach it. There are good professors and there are bad
> professors.

Of course there are, but we have to start from the assumption that the
professors are good. If they are not, then something else must be done,
not to give more decision to students.

>>If the students, who don't know any better, would be let to decide, it
>>would be all Java and Oracle. Just because they think it would be more
>>useful for them, but there are wrong.
>
> There are many brilliant people who choose and use Java and Oracle...are
> they "wrong"?

<sigh> No, I'm only saying that in university there should be
programming language courses and database courses. Not Java and Oracle
courses. The courses *might* use the same tools, but preferably not.

If I'd choose, I'd probably teach programming in Pascal, Object Pascal
or Java (in that order) and DB courses with something SQL specs
compliant DB engine (which is not Oracle).

> IMO, the best professionals are the ones that understand the fundamental
> concepts. However I've met many programmers that get paid, and get paid
> well, who can't code very well and don't understand squat.

But that's what I have been telling too. The fundamentals are the
important issues, not the tools you are using in learning.

Yes, I very well know there are a lot of people working in the industry
who don't understand just about anything. E.g. there are few people in
our big company who are working as a java programmers, but they don't
know the basic OO concepts !?! How is that possible you might ask, but I
don't really know. You'd have to ask the person who hired them. I'm
trying to track him/her down.

> Also, many recruiters and IT managers hire people based on the specific
> language/products/tools they have experience in...so in acquiring a job,
> IMO, it's not all about the CS concepts.

Yes, this is probably true very often. Sad. But I will try to trust that
I'll meet the educated recruiters next time I'll apply for a job.

E.g. if I would be forced to apply for a job using C#, I'll tell them
that I have learned the NET framework quite well, but I have used
Delphi.NET. I also tell that I have used C# enough to know the syntax
issues. That should be enough for the educated ones.

If they would still be pondering, I'd throw the "BTW, did you know that
the Delphi's lead architect is also the lead architect of C#?"-card ;-)

But of course, this is all very hypothetical, because I'd never apply
for a C# job, not unless there's a gun pointed at me.

David

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