Re: Over 100 Microsoft MVPs Have Signed Online Petition - Give Us Back VB!!
From: Richard Grossman (rgrossmanDELETE-THIS-PART_at_techIII.com)
Date: 03/30/05
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Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:14:10 -0800
Dan Barclay wrote:
> "Richard Grossman" <rgrossmanDELETE-THIS-PART@techIII.com> wrote in message
>>I think it's pretty horrid.
> Too bad you didn't learn how to use it properly.
That must be it.
> The only real problem with VB is Microsoft.
When you get over on the business side of things, you see that
Microsoft's products are dirt cheap compared to the cost of the
processes they support, and that they are mostly in sync with business
requirements.
For the most demanding programmers, their tools are often not
satisfactory, which is just like saying that for racing at Indianopolis,
a Ford Escort is not the right car. It doesn't mean the Ford sucks for
everyone, but it sure does for a race-car driver.
> The data model is a library external to the language, not
> that it matters to many of us.
Except those who have to switch grids because the frickin' data model
changed. What was *that* about?
> Contrary to popular belief, real apps in VB
> are not so much data front ends as MS portrayed them for so long.
Aha. So then it's the fault of those who try to access *data* that VB
seems horrid. In other words, you're saying, just don't use VB as a
front-end for data and you're A-OK.
Already, I'm in agreement <g>.
> I seldom "do" data, and when I do I wrap all that in my own functions.
That's the only thing I do. Reminds me of the last programming argument
I had - about 3 years ago - in the middle of it I realized the other guy
was a graphics programmer - he was typically given 3 weeks to polish a
page of code. If I get 3 weeks to polish an entire module, it's a
miracle of generosity.
Coming from radically different experiences, it's easy to see it's
natural that we differ in our outlook.
>>Actually, I think VB is the "dbase" of the 90's: a lot of people who
>>aren't programmers start messing with it and eventually wind up doing a
>>lot of programming in it, and some eventually graduate and become
>>programmers.
>
>
> Think whatever you want. We provide solutions. My degree is in Lectricul
> Inguneering. I learned FORTRAN in the '70's. You can write FORTRAN code
> in any language, including Delphi.
>
> If it bothers you that I don't have a CS degree... too damned bad<g>. Want
> to compare toys?
Sorry - that wasn't supposed to come across as a put-down. Although I
studied a little in school (FORTRAN like you), career-wise it started
with dBase. dBase made it possible to quickly whip out saleable
programs on timeframes and at costs unheard of at the time. Ninety
percent of the dBase/FoxPro community came from previous non-programmer
careers, including myself.
But I hear CS is good for people who want to write compilers, or
ROM-code for microwave ovens. <g>
> Yup, dead end courtesy of MS. We should have learned the last time. After
> the VB4 fiasco they had a handful of us to Redmond and promised us it
> wouldn't happen again. They actually convinced me that they "got it". The
> thing is, those guys are long gone.
No, the truth is they never got it - they just convinced you that they
had. I knew some people their in the 90's and it seemd as though they
would do and say anything to hit their targets.
>>In VB, there's no there there (apologies to Gertrude Stein).
>
> Too bad you didn't find it. It's there.
What's not there are databased components that actually work (the ones
in Delphi work and the ones in VB are so bad that they are never used),
reliable distribution packaging, and DLL-management to avoid DLL-hell.
In VB, coming from Delphi, there are exactly 4 things in VB that I like:
1-Demand for VB programming
2-Supply of VB programmers
3-Automatic re-casing of variablesas as you type to match the declaration
4-Stop/edit/continue
> If you're working on simple things, flow doesn't matter<g>. (Sorry, I
> couldn't resist)
We were just talking at work today and asking who's a binge programmer.
I had to admit I'm one. When the force is with me, I won't stop until
it's "done", which could be 3, 4, or 5 AM.
> So, you've just coded a complex fragment, you want to test it and modify if
> necessary. You "run" then stop to declare vars, remembering their types
> etc. Now you "run" again... hmmm... what was I doing there? In Basic you
> would have decorated the vars with their type characters and never skipped a
> beat.
>
> Six of one...
Welllll, you know, even in dotNet, where you can declare vars inline
whenever you want to, I declare them all at the top. It seems "just
plain wrong" to me to declare vars all over the place.
In VB I alwasy set strict vars on and dim them at the beginning anyway.
>>In my case, having to put those stupid underlines at the end of a line in
>>order to continue it, and having single quotes demark comments, are the
>>two most extremely annoying things.
>
>
> Man, you have a very low threshold of pain. Perhaps it's like having to use
> ":=" when you mean "="? Or, like having to type the damned ";" when it's
> clearly the end of the statement?
Objectively now, you type a lot more line-continuations in VB than you
type line terminators in Delphi or C.
It's just not efficient to make the default termination and require a
special character to continue.
And semicolon (;) is way easier to touch-type than an underscore (_).
>> Add in the mystery of distributing the right components for a VB app
>>versus the single EXE of a Delphi program, and well...
>
> Now *there* is a HUGE advantage of Delphi. Not of the language, but of the
> development environment. VB folks consider this a big deal.
I really like creating an EXE in Delphi and putting it out on the
network with no install package required.
I actually have a little routine in some apps where the user can add
desktop shortcuts to the app.
Then I send an internal email with a link to the app, the user clicks
it, runs the app, and the app creates the shortcuts.
No installer.
[Of course complicated apps can require an installer].
> Since I had customers who hadn't moved to Windows for some time, I had to maintain
> two different products.
I had one client who had some OS/2 up until early 1999. I couldn't move
my app to Windows until that last system went away.
> Again, this isn't about .Net. It's about the Basic language. VB.Net
> *isn't* MS Basic.
To me, VB.Net is just BASIC with a new set of libraries to learn. No
biggie.
I take any programmer who's good in VB6 and give them 3 weeks to pick up
VB.net. Over that 3 weeks, their productivity is at 50%, and then back
to normal, and then better.
Learning to write OO code is another matter...
>>Microsoft doesn't need these people. There are lots more where they came
>>from. Just like how they came in when a previous grouop of people with a
>>previous skill set were swept aside.
> MS is fairly well concerned about this loss. There is a huge political mess
> on the inside because of it, and there are people who's job it is to bring
> us in. Unfortunately for them and for us, this problem has risen to the
> point that it will take Ballmer "cleaning house" to fix it, and that's just
> not going to happen.
Here's another possible interpretation to consider:
There's no huge political mess and MS is not concerned a whit about
old-school VB'ers. Realistically, where are they going to go? Delphi?
Sure they should, and I'd like it if they would, but companies are not
going to shift out to Delphi in numbers significant to Microsoft. The
ones that don't want Microsoft tools are using Java. The rest will go
to dot-Net next year, or the next year, or the next.
And if they do go to Delphi, so what? Delphi is a licensee of Microsoft
technology - it just takes a support headache off Microsoft's hands and
puts in Borlands, and Microsoft still gets paid.
Microsoft is a business and the tech community just can't over the fact
that Microsoft acts in their own self-interest and not for the general
benefit of the programmers of the world.
The online petition won't cost Microsoft a dime in revenue - almost none
of those people make the buying decisions anyway.
> DotNet, as cool as it is, simply hasn't had the uptake that it should have.
Next time you're at your dentist, look over the desk at what they're
using on their computers. Often it's a *Clipper* program running under
DOS - they're entrenched.
Hasn't hurt the sales of Windows.
Microsoft usually doesn't attack the users of the previous generation of
any of it's products - it attacks the users of the generation before
that - just look at the poor souls still trying to run NT.
> One of the key reasons for that is the inability for successful developers,
> with successful apps on the ground, to bring them to DotNet.
They don't care. And those apps can stay in VB6, which Microsoft is
spending 0 on.
> When Windows was getting off the ground it struggled for some time, until VB allowed
> existing apps to be brought forward to create a "critical mass" in the
> market, and this has not happened with DotNet. Essentially everything
> developed in DotNet has been from scratch, and that has been a huge handicap
> in getting the mass up.
I programmed in dBase and then FoxPro until after Microsoft bought them
and beyond. Then Microsoft came out with the first version of Fox that
wouldn't compile previous applications *ever*. Up until then, I could
compile my old dBAse III apps if I wanted to.
So I did a zero-based analysis and decided that if I had to learn
something from scratch, I'd learn Delphi.
Delphi is and will be among the top choices with people for whom IDE,
language quality, development process, and application deliverability is
of high importance.
But there are many other considerations than those from a business
perspective.
> Well, actually a 'VB to Delphi' newsgroup has been suggested <g>.
Or "borland.public.delphi.VB-Coder-Welcome-Center".
- Next message: James K Smith: "Re: So you want a 64 bit Delphi..."
- Previous message: JED: "Re: Will there be an update 3 for D2005 ?"
- In reply to: Dan Barclay: "Re: Over 100 Microsoft MVPs Have Signed Online Petition - Give Us Back VB!!"
- Next in thread: Charles Appel: "Re: Over 100 Microsoft MVPs Have Signed Online Petition - Give Us Back VB!!"
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