Re: Delphi 2005 Win32 development stopped
- From: Eyal <ez_bikbon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:52:21 +0200
Brett Watters wrote:
Eyal,
Delphi 7 already does everything which one can do in Win32.
Really? For the past 5 years Win32 supports Unicode, but Borland won't even consider supporting Unicode on Win32.
Every tried VB. That's fun. Opps... DB doesn't support Unicode, opps... this Active-X doesn't support Unicode, opps....
And what is the point here? That VB sucks? Ok. So what. Knowing that VB sucks doesn't help Delphi users a single bit.
No future language features are going to significantly improve Win32 development or make a significantly better product for the end-user.
Generics, for in loop, const/type inside classes, and many other features can significantly improve development, regardless if it's Win32 or .NET or any other target platform.
Significantly? LOL.
These are so minor, they aren't funny. To someone not using Delphi, they wouldn't even merit a foot-note in marketting.
Well, every time someone mentions that lack of Delphi progress on Win32, someone from Borland or TeamB mentions for-in loops. So apparently many people do consider it a significant improvement.
And in my opinion Generics are a significant improvement that can save a lot of time. Of course your mileage may vary.
Anyway "significant" is a relative term, and given the maturity of the current tools (Win32 as well as other platforms), new features are small compared to entire existing feature set.
And there's still a long way to go in the VCL - better grids, trees, DB controls, etc.
Buy them, download them, or make them. For the cost of one Delphi license/upgrade, you could buy enough DevEx controls
I buy them - from Borland, at least that what Borland tells me. So why pay again?
Besides, most 3rd party components derive from the base classes of the VCl, and inherit all the bugs. So as long as Borland doesn't fix the bugs, all 3rd party libraries will continue to have exactly the same bugs.
Don't bother to argue on that point, because I contributed many fixes to several popular component libraries, to work around bugs they inherit from the VCL.
>to outclass any VB or C++ app out there. Are there better controls for VB which I'm not aware of?
I've never run into a Win32 app from a non-Delphi competitor which we didn't dust in terms of interface.
What's this obssession with VB? The fact that it, or some other tools, are inferior to Delphi, doesn't mean that there's nothing to improve in Delphi.
The user interface of D8 apps can also "dust" many other apps, but do you really want to use D8 for the rest of your career?
And there's a lot of room for improvments in the DB area, Delphi is great for proto-typing but becomes cumbersome and even limiting when getting down to the real work. For example the dataset concept lacks "free" (unbound) columns to store calculated values.
DB area? As opposed to what? VB, MS C++? It already slaughters them in this area. It has a half-dozen DB connection technologies and its VCL metaphore puts all others to shame.
Apparently you derive a lot of pleasure from weaknesses of other products, but that doesn't solve a single problem in Delphi. To the point, please tell me of a reasonable and efficient way add a running balance column to that great TDataset that puts all others to shame.
In short, there's a lot of room for improvement in Delphi, that isn't specific to Win32 but can make a big difference for Win32 development too.
It's already (IMO) the best Win32 system out there. It isn't going to get twice as good, over even 10% better even if you added every minor feature you could dream up. They have already reached the point of diminishing returns with D4.
You miss the point(s).
First of all, although Delphi supports most/all of the Win32 API, there are still bugs that force developers to do more work. That's one area of possible improvement.
Then, there's the VCL, which can always get better. For example Borland can extend it to become cross-platform, support Unicode, improve theme support (for non XP users), and of course fix the (many) bugs. Most of this isn't Win32 specific, but it can greatly benefit Win32 developers.
Finally, the Delphi compiler can evolve to support new programming methods, such as for-in loops, Generics and who know what else. Again this isn't Win32 but will improve Delphi for Win32 as well.
It honestly doesn't matter if you are perfect. What matters is if you are better than everyone else. Delphi 7 is better than any other Win32 development system out there -- and MSs aren't going to get any better since they have stopped Win32.
As a Delphi user I always demand better value from Borland, regardless of the alternatives. It's Borland's job to weigh its product positioning against the competition and decide the features/quality/price proposition. Of course if they get it wrong they may lose me as a paying customer.
The point is, the fact that Delphi7 is better than Microsft's VB or VC, is pointless for me. I've already decided for Delphi 7 and I wish to continue to use it. For this I expect Borland to fix bugs in recent versions, and I expect new versions to provide me an upgrade path to a better product.
Borland failed on both accounts. Delphi 7 got a single (buggy) update that was long overdue, and many bugs are still not fixed and never will be. On the other hand D8 was a total disaster, and (for me) D2005 is a flop as well.
I don't see how the weaknesses of VB should make any differece.
A much bigger problem is that Borland shifts away from programming tools (compiler/IDE/class library), to software delivery tools (requirement management, version control, etc.)
Why? They have realized that the IDE is good enough and that spending resources with minor improvements in the IDE isn't going to equal big productivity improvements for developers. If it is looking into other ways to improve development... great.
They have to improve the IDE and core compiler to maintain existing customers. Otherwise they'll lose them to other IDEs and compilers. The world doesn't stand still and alternative develop all the time (for example VS+Chrome, FreePascal+Lazarus).
It may take a few months or it may take several years, but at some point there will be better IDEs. I think it's cheaper and more profitable to keep current customers happy and upgrading, than try to win them back from competitors.
We are a 'small-to-medium' sized shop and I honestly can't think of any IDE/language enhancements which would give me even a 0.1% improvement in productivity. D7 isn't light years ahead of D4, and we skipped D5, D6, and D2005 -- we bought them and said 'Not enough improvement to justify using them.'.
I'm really happy for you that non of the current D7 bugs affect you, and I admire you for making your code so efficient that it can't get any better with new language enhancements. However I suspect that most other Delphi developers have not reached that level of divinity.
Now, if Borland can save me 5% in development time/cost via version control or requirement management, then I'm sold.
Borland can save me at least 25% of my development time/cost if the fix only the BiDi issues, and make TDataset more flxible. I spend Siginificant portions of my time working around BiDi problems and trying to add dataset columns to hold calculated values.
Personally, hat's off to Borland for putting resources where it is likely to have a significant impact on cutting development times. Sorry, but For...in...do just doesn't cut it.
For you maybe, or for me. Apparently most everyone else is really excited about it.
Fine. Good luck elsewhere. I'm not saying that Borland/Delphi is perfect (and I agree with some of your statements), but I think you'll find it is still better than the alternatives.
However, if Unicode, or Linux, etc. were requirements, then I'm not sure
why you selected Delphi?
Both were not, and stil aren't, requirements. However both will give me easy ways to convert my product to other languages and OS platforms.
- The "quality" of D2005 and the 3 updates, followed by what seems to be refusal to actually fix D2005 in favor of D2006.
I don't mean to sound uncaring, but who cares? We brough D2005, looked at it, and put it on the shelf. D7 works better for us... bugs aside.
> ... > D7 is still better than VB6.
What I said, is that it's a bad sign (of several) that makes me trust Borland less and less.
You may see each bug, each crappy release, each shortcoming, as an isolated incident. And each time you may find comfort in the thought that VB is worse.
I look at things differently. I see a trend and I worry about my options when I realize where Borland and Delphi are going.
For out apps. D8 didn't work. VS.NET doesn't work. C# doesn't work. And D2005 doesn't work. If D2006 does work, fine. If not, I'm no worse off. In any case, I do not base my development decisions on unseen or untested products.
But I did base my decision on EXISTING products, namely D7 (and to much lesse degree Kylix 3). I was promised BiDi support, which is badly implemented. I got the impression from 2-3 D6 updates that Borland provides regular fixes - but I got a single, very late, very minor update.
I'm not going to say "Lets go .NET" until I find a product which
does work. And when I do, who cares how many failed products there were before hand?
Try Chrome. I see on their newsgroups that most people who try it seems very impressed.
- A flow of product releases and executive statements that make it clear that Borland sees the future in SDO, not in core programming tools.
Ok. IMO, they have just run across an obvious fact -- core tools have reached a peek. IMO, looking at other ways to significantly aid development is far smarter than spending the same effort adding minor enhancements which I'd likely skip anyway.
Many people considered Delphi 1 to be the peak, yet there was room for improvement. The fact that *you* don't need anything new in Delphi, doesn't mean that other don't need new stuff.
If Borland finds new revenue streams in other products - fine. But why neglect the core product?
IMO, Microsoft lost the Win32 game. (I'm talking technically, not ... Since Microsoft isn't going to come up with a better Win32 mouse- trap than Borland's Delphi, I have no problem in Borland looking ...
This is all irrelevant.
Timely bug fixes, continued progress of the language, continued improvement in the IDE, etc. have nothing to do with the technical merits of Win32. Most of the improvement that Delphi users hope for, are not tied to Win32.
My only hope is that Borland will be so un-interested in Delphi that they'll release it under an open source license, or at least the VCL. But I know that chances this will happen are next to nothing.
My hope, is that your hope doesn't come true.
Any reason other than "I hate those open source communists"? If the Win32 VCL is already perfect for you, and Borland won't touch it anyway, then why should you care if it becomes open source for other to develop?
Eyal. .
- References:
- Delphi 2005 Win32 development stopped
- From: Max
- Re: Delphi 2005 Win32 development stopped
- From: Brett Watters
- Re: Delphi 2005 Win32 development stopped
- From: Eyal
- Re: Delphi 2005 Win32 development stopped
- From: Brett Watters
- Delphi 2005 Win32 development stopped
- Prev by Date: Re: Eclipse Rich Client Platform (RCP)
- Next by Date: Re: Delphi 2005 Win32 development stopped
- Previous by thread: Re: Delphi 2005 Win32 development stopped
- Next by thread: Re: Delphi 2005 Win32 development stopped
- Index(es):
Relevant Pages
|
