Re: Just wondering... EvilOgre.com

Replies below.

> Ryan is right saying that there should be a last name - which in fact
> there's not - and this doesn't look "good", imho, along with a valid
> email address on the EvilOgre.com site.

It's Soroka. And there are valid email addresses on the EvilOgre.com site.

>> 1. Sharing of source code between Evil Ogre Team members
>>
>> I've clarified this to refer to components, which is completely optional.
>> Providing component source code to other developers is so they can use
>> your components to build better products for sale on EvilOgre.com
>
> "Providing"? At what title? Free? If *I* want to release something *free*,
> I simply do it. I have done it already and will do it again.
> More thoughts on source code later on, since I've got a few
> other things to say.

Again, that was optional. Don't agree? Don't see benefit? Don't do it. I
personally would love to see developers use my Encephalon components in
their products and sell on EvilOgre.com. I think it benefits both parties.

>> 2. What do we do with your source code?
>>
>> our standards and we need to be able to meet the promise to our customers
>> of being able to support software we sell should you be unavailable to
>> support it.
>
> Ok, I have a few questions about this.
>
> 1) What happens if my code doesn't meet your "standards"?

Then we tell you how we want you to improve it and decide whether or not we
want you to write for us.

> 2) What are your "standards" like?

We encourage OO code, easy to maintain (and hopefully read), use of
Borland's source code style guide, proper thought put into error handling,
and efficient code. We take all these things into consideration.

> 3) What happens if I want to remove my program from your
> site?

We don't require exclusivity and will do so at your request. We will either
keep your source on hand for the sole purpose of supporting our customers,
or if you wish we can redirect support inquiries to you and remove your
source from our personal source server if you plan to continue to sell and
support the product elsewhere.

> 4) Would you please expand on the "we'll support software if you are
> unavailable"? Again, I'm not implying any malice here, but you see,
> I'd rather choose who's going to support my program and by the way,
> is there any exclusive with you? See, because if there's not, this
> also poses a problem with customers from other sources, say that
> some bug is solved in two different ways, this could be going to be
> uncomfortable for some customers. Instead, if there's an exclusive,
> then I want to be sure that you'll intervene *only* if I'm really
> unable to, not just because I didn't reply to a mail for 3 days, for
> instance.

I answered some of this in the last question. Hopefully it will never
happen, but some developers may stop supporting their software without
arranging for us to support it (long vacation, lost interest, too busy, hit
by a bus). Should any of these occur, we still want our customers to be
happy with us.

re 3 days: as a customer, I don't think you'd want to wait 3 business days
for a reply. We should aim for 2 or less. If you can't be contacted we'll
try to help the customer and notify you regarding what did to help the
customer.

> Sorry if I look... how to say... suspicious, it's just that it doesn't
> feel "good" till now... I hope you understand my concerns.

absolutely, I'd be the same way.

>> We will continue to pay you for as long as your product is on our site
>> and is selling, but we reserve the right to adjust the percentage if you
>> are no longer supporting the software.
>
> Ok, let's discuss this, too :-)
> "Adjust the percentage", eh? By a factor of...?
> Please expand.

The cost of us to provide the service to support it. We'd discuss this with
you first if you are available. I don't have a cost figured out for this
yet.

>> Source code provided is specifically for the Evil Ogre administrators to
>> review for quality control, and will not be made available to anyone
>> else, including other EO developers without your prior consent.
>
> Please, would you expand on this "quality control"?
> The question stands still in full place, what happens if I refuse to
> make you see the sources? You say that letting you see the sources is
> optional, so I'd like to understand if you mean that the quality
> control is optional too...

It's optional to let other developers see your source.
It's not optional to let Evil Ogre see your source. We will sign an NDA if
asked. If this is not acceptable, I don't see how we can work together.

> Again, I'm not implying anything "bad", but if you're a developer(as it
> would seem) I think you can understand the point I'm trying to make.

I understand.

>> Yes, we'll sign an NDA. We're not out to steal your code, we want to
>> help you sell it.
>
> I *never* said your intent was to steal code, far, far from me saying
> something like that. But you'll agree that this source code thing is at
> least uncommon for resellers of any kind.
> This troubles me more for the "concept" of it rather than because of
> doing it.

Right, but we're not just a reseller. We want to brand the product as an
Evil Ogre product. This is common in other industries, where the same
factory could make products for two different companies and brand them
seperately. As a consumer you're not privy to the information on who
manufactured the product. (You know GAP is selling a product, but you don't
know which manufacturer made it for them).

>> I think what was under-stressed in this thread is what EO provides. It's
>> in
>
> Mhhhhh... I guess it was understressed because no one went far explaining
> *exactly what* you'll do to promote the programs.
> You now have the chance to go full length explaining, please let us
> appreciate your work and your marketing by sharing with us
> what you do.

We will register applications with generic software download sites, we will
register components with sites specific to the languages it works in, we
will advertise your product, if possible we will arrange companies to resell
your EO products for a commission (originally we were planning to pay this,
but by splitting the cost with you we can give you an extra 10% on
non-commission sales). If you need, we can arrange for artwork for your
program to be developed.

>> our best interest to spend as much as we can afford on advertising and
>> promoting your products. We have our own products for sale too, and we
>> want as many visitors to come see as many useful, quality products as
>> possible.
>
> That's understandable and again, I'm full eyes ready to read what your
> promotions for the single software looks like.
> The thread started out of interest, and that interest still applies,
> since you took the time to answer here - which is very positive.

Thanks.

>> If we can increase the number of visitors and sales you'd get, I don't
>> think most developers would have a problem with 30% profit on sales they
>> don't have to work to bring in on a continuing basis.
>
> Uhm... and how about the last 7 months spent doing it? How about the
> knowledge inside it? See, these are all things that should be
> rewarded, along with the value that a good product takes to your
> site.

One of the suggestions was a sliding pay scale, I'm discussing how we can do
this with my partner now and I'll post here when I have the details
finalized, but it sounds like it'll be a volume-based incentive (you make
more than 30% based on sales volume), plus a guaranteed volume bonus for the
first year regardless of actual volume to get you started. I'll post these
numbers shortly.

> I think that a 30% on sales isn't very fair, should be at least 45%,
> imho.

See last 3 replies, we're working on improving that for you.

>> Most of you have your own hobby sites. How well do your products sell?
>> Do
>
> Well, the conclusion that most of us have hobby sites is just yours,
> backed by what facts? Your home page shows just one product and
> leaves two links empty, like if it was work in progress. Does
> that look "professional" to you?

backed by the replies I've gotten and who I know in the industry already.
I've been a Delphi developer for a long time and most of the people I know
who write software professionally have websites to provide that to the
public.

The fact is we are a work in progress. There's only one empty link, and
it's because I've recently removed a product because I wasn't happy with the
sales or the quality. It'll be back up once I'm happier with it.

> Please don't get me bad, but I'm trying to make up my mind.

Take your time. I appreciate the opportunity to reply to your concerns.

>> you have time to write software and promote the products? Can you pay for
>> advertising up front or get the traffic needed to support the product?
>> Just some things to think about.
>
> Well, if I have a product on Download.com, have a website and Google
> ADs, I'm doing promotion. Google ADs can be cheap, you can target it
> based on your budget and doing the right keywords you may have
> very good returns with a low budget. And Google, it surely reaches a
> very wide user base :-)
> Do you see my point?

There's no doubt that you could promote your own product yourself. The
biggest benefit you get with us that you wont get alone is that you'll be
listed right next to other great products that are already selling. When
someone comes to see Encephalon components, they'll see yours too.

>> This is a good business plan and it has a lot of potential. It's not for
>> everyone, but it shouldn't be disregarded.
>
> Nobody is questioning the model, I'm questioning the classes :-)
> And I'd love to see you expand on the "not for everyone" thing.

Some scenarios where we're better off not partnering: You don't really have
time to support your product (at least until we're ready to hire third party
support), you are unwilling to show your source to us--even with an NDA, or
you are unwilling or unable to provide finishing touches on your application
such as: documentation/help, tutorials, demos, trials, etc.

> Thank you for taking the time to answer, this was overly appreciated.

Again, thanks for asking.

Steven Soroka
Evil Ogre Software
http://www.EvilOgre.com


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