Re: Is there any hope for Microsoft ?

Relaxin wrote:
"Paul Nichols [TeamB]" <"Paul Nichols [TeamB]"> wrote in message news:459852dd@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Relaxin wrote:
They are there, if you look outside the MS box. :)

I'm in a Delphi group, so obviously I've looked outside of MS. :)

Agreed!! That's why I find such a dependence on MS tools rather striking!



AJAX is a buzzword that people keep throwing out and many companies are attempting to exploit, IMHO. There is no magic to Ajax at all. Ajax is simply a JavaScript implementation of a XMLHttpRequest/Response.

AJAX is much more than a "buzzword", it's the next level in Web development, just like frameworks
became the next level in Windows development.

See, this is EXACTLY what the author was speaking about. Frameworks is the latest MS way of doing things. Problem is, MS is about 5-10 years LATE!

We have been using Frameworks in the Java world for over six years.
Many of these came from the Open Source world, like Apache, for example.


You can create event driven Windows applications also with nothing more than a text editor also.
But I wouldn't advise it if you are like most of us and have deadlines to meet and a life to live. :)

Comparing HTML and Windows API forms requires a great stretch of the imagination :). Anyone who cannot type in simple HTML, is not a Web Developer. Sorry.

JavaScript can be debugged using a tool like the Venkman tool that can be found in the Firefox plugin sites. Do I wish for a better Java Script IDE? Yes! But I do not need visual Java Script. You cannot do that anyway, since it needs to be running in a browser environment to test.

However, I have been toying with the idea of taking the NVU framework and including Java Script assignments for onClick, onMouseUp, MouseDown, etc., events and allowing you to test from the framework. Any helpers want to assist?

..

No different that what Borland has done with Delphi, BCB and JBuilder.

True, and I am not against Drag and Drop Aides. The problem is too many people have started here, cannot venture out from here, and do not understand how this works.

However, no one is going to do Server Side Java programming or any other type of Server Side programming using Drag and Drop. Server Side processing does not use a GUI, so what are you going to drag and drop?

I think this is why so may have a hard time transitioning from the thick Client/Server world. They do not understand how the HTTP protocol and socket programming works, therefore it is hard for them to transition to socket based programming without a Visual Form.




But we are not talking about novice, we are talking about gaining better productivity
and cohesiveness in the "real world" without the fear that the new technology won't be pulled from under you.

Again, I do not see how you can come from Drag and Drop GUI world to Server side programming world, without losing this concept of Visual Event processing/programming model. It simply does not work in the Server side processing, socket based programming world.

Any programmer who starts and tries to use the same paradigm for creating a client GUI for Web based programming, is going to find the experience very frustrating. Finding a tool that helps them with the simple, I am afraid, is fostering this illusion and is going to cause them greater difficulty in the long run. To be honest, I have serious problems with JSF and I am a huge Java fan.


I have never been stuck with MS tools and I certainly am not now! You may be, but if you are, you choose to be.


Well this thread isn't for you then, we are talking about people who are/have to use MS products because nothing better
exist or the person that signs the check has more confidence is MS than in Borland, so MS is the choice.

Uh, I totally disagree. Not a single person on my development teams use Visual Studio, not one.

Is this because I am working in a small company? I guess if over 60,000 employees is small, then yes, it is a small company. :)

To be sure, there are some in the company who use Visual Studio, but there are more who are not using Visual Studio than are. In fact I would venture somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-10 to 1 who do not. Hard to run MS on Unix server farms. :)



What are you talking about here?
Are you trying to say that Visual Studio "can't" do some things that Delphi can?
Or have you just really gotten off of the subject here?

Earlier Days, before VB was a NET product. We are speaking here of version 1-6. VB could not do what Delphi did back then, period!

The analogy was that yes, you can take a shorter path, but you will always have limitations, just like the VB developer (who did not know C++ or something else) did.

What ever you say about Visual Studio can be said about BDS.
But the difference is that Borland will always being playing catch-up to everyone...
whether it be open-source or MS. So if you need or want to stay update-to-date with the
latest, you have to choose MS over Borland...everytime.
But the "rub" in doing that, is that MS solutions do not solve my "real world" problems like Borland use to do.
There are ways to get around them, but they serverly cut into your productivity.


This, my friend, we are in total agreement on. That is one reason I do not like NET. All innovation has to come from MS, who controls its direction and future!

.

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