Re: Pleas for help from clueless students?

In article <1151409573.72387.0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Tom Lucas <news@REMOV
EautoTOflameREPLY.clara.co.uk> writes
"Chris Hills" <chris@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:ZlPkKRBe2QoEFAby@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Forums such as this rely on the kindness of people answering
questions.
I don't think it's right to do someone's homework for them but it
doesn't hurt to push them in the right direction rather than lambast
them for asking.

It depends how they ask which is the point being made. A lot of it is
a
blunt 2 line demand for information on something where the OP seems
not
even to have bothered googleing.

I'll agree with that - basic manners are required. Perhaps posters
should be clearer to point out that they have tried searching first.
Some people seem to have real problems finding anything on google for
some reason. Perhaps they are being lazy and lying?

That's the complaint

I was very nervous when I first posted here because a
lot of newbies had been given short shrift and there appeared to be a
lot of intellectual elitism going on.

I have not seen that. The newbies given short shift are those who do
not appear to have even done the basic research themselves. they want
all the answers given to them without any effort on their part.

I've definitely felt an air of elitism - the very title of this thread
is patronising if you happen to be easily offended. However, I must
qualify this in that it very rarely raises its head and the vast
majority of posters are very respectful. Mind you I could cite the
"Books/Articles on Embedded SW Architecture" thread as one where someone
who clearly an accomplished engineer in his field got a good grilling
(correctly challenging his preconceptions) but at some points in that
thread there was a bit of sneering going on. There was another example
of this somewhere that I can't put my finger on at the minute.

As I say, it's not there often and once you know the group better you
understand why people respond as they do - but I maintain that this is
intimidating for newbies.

Besides you should lurk for a while and look at the archive. People
get
fed up with answering the same question every time the lecturer sets
the
new clas the same assignment as last year.

Perhaps a FAQ would be a good idea for this group. At the very least it
could explain how to look through the archives.

There is one I thought.... google for it :-)

The embedded field is so wide and complex that when you start out it's
difficult to know whether you are asking a stupid question or not.

True. So ask and explain WHY you are asking, what you are trying to
achieve etc .

That's all part of the uncertainty - it's not always easy to see what
you might hope to achieve. I've only just found out that there was a
tool that could knock out headers for my MCU but, not knowing that such
a thing might exist, I didn't ask where I could find it and consequently
have missed out.

That is always going to be the case. Try talking to your suppliers.
(Paul D has it)

Legitimate questions can also look like homework assignments if not
carefully worded

However a lot of questions patently are homework.

Well yes, that's fair enough. A FAQ might help that but some people will
ride roughshod over netiquette whatever you do. I have no problem with
people attacking those.

I think that is what Grant was aiming at.

and if English is not your first langauge it is even
harder.

It has never been a problem in the past... I have been on the Internet
in NG's for over 16 years. It is only very recently that the phenomena
Grant describes has appeared. Usually it is waves of similar
questions... they all seem to set assignments at around the same time
:-)

Well this is all stems for the google revolution I think.

Google? the Search engine?

That is the problem the students are not using it.


The thing is these attempts to get some dummy to solve your problem
for you
are so common I imagine it must work sometimes. I've seen it work on
usenet.

Sometimes it's fun for the dummies. Plus everyone else can learn
something from the solution - except the person whose had their
homework
done, admittedly :-p

The problem is that often the solution is one that the student could
not
have done themselves. I have seen some very good solutions with
carefully inserted flaws or things so advanced that it will be obvious
it is not the students work.

Well that's just child abuse ;-)
:-) We know. serves them right.

Seriously though, a partial solution is
one of the most useful teaching tools. At leasts it beats the "where do
I start" problem which is really what a lot of people are looking for.

SO if they posted a partial solution they would be helped. A lot of
them ask for a complete solution having posted nothing and made no
effort.

Google don't help the situation and destroys the community feel usenet
should have

I don't see that.

The google debate is always tricky. On one hand a great many people who
might never have heard of usenet can now offer their opinions and
knowledge, on the other hand a great many people who should never have
heard of usenet can now offer their opinions and knowledge.

:-)

Why do people use google rather than a real new reader?


While the googlers are still considered to be invaders then there will
always be friction.

It was the same when AOL dumped its members on the net.

Google groups has revolutionised usenet

No. It hasn't done anything to usenet. Just a pretty front end I am
told.

and lots of
people are now having to progress along the denial-resistance-acceptance
change cycle and lots are stuck on resistance. It will eventually come
right but it's going to be a bumpy road.

Actually Google has had to modify the way it works due to pressure from
non-google usenet users. Long may it continue.

but I think they've done good things too and have brought
people here who would never have found it otherwise (for better or for
worse!).

SO how did people find it before? Google has done a dis-service.
Before
people had to d a little work to find it and thus valued it.

There's two sides to that coin as well and it touches on my point about
the elitism earlier. Previously usenet was an exclusive little club that
had very few members in relation to the user base of the internet

Completely untrue. MOST Internet users used usenet until recently. It
was only with the very recent explosion on *non-technical* users on web
based mail systems that the percentage of usenet users has fallen.

and
part of the entrance exam was being able to find it.

Fair enough. However 995 of those of use in "computing" and electronics
could find it.

Now google has
removed that barrier all the existing members are disdainful to the new
ones because they didn't have to "prove" themselves like they did.

Not exactly. It is a case of the gate crashers have not bothered with
the rules of the society they are joining.

Personally I loathe the google interface and prefer the style in
outlook.

I haven't got as far as using outlook for news yet.

I haven't tried other readers but there must be a lot of bad
ones in use.

No.... a lot of readers that conform to the prefered method of using
usenet.

The fury about top-posting and attributions is pointless to
me because I can follow a thread easily with outlook and am actually
irritated to have to scroll through the quoted text everytime someone
adds a point. But that is an argument for another day.

Yes. Another day. (you have to have a convention that the majority like)

In summary, I think google brings more people and thus more knowledge

Not at all. When AOL dumped it's user on the net most said the average
IO on the net halved... the same might be said here.

experience and opinion than ever before on usenet. Unfortunately it also
brings kooks, morons and spammers too.

That is the complaint from Grant.



--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@xxxxxxxxxxxx www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/



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