Re: Attention: European C/C++/C#/Java Programmers-Call for Input

Paul K. McKneely wrote:
Now you've heard those opinions - it's an amazingly stupid idea. Whoever thought of it clearly has no clue about European languages or their alphabets, no clue as to how Europeans write their code, and has apparently never thought to actually *ask* European if they would want such a "feature".

I said right up front that I am an American who wants to have some
feedback from Europeans because I don't have full appreciation
for what you just said above. That is why I posted in the first place.
Now why so many of you get so angry because I ask for your opinions,
and then you turn around and claim that I am so thoughtless as to never
ask for you opinions. Duhhhh!

Illustration:
Boy: Daddy. Can I please have a drink of water?
Man: Why don't you ever ask before you get a drink of water you stupid Boy!


I know you are American, but you *do* understand English, don't you? No one is angry or annoyed - I don't think anyone but you has posted an angry or directly rude post. Perhaps you are unaware of how British English speakers (and many other Europeans when speaking or writing in English) use things like sarcasm and understatement for emphasis.

I too can give illustrations:

Boy: Daddy, I'm thirsty, so I'm going to have a sandwich. Do you think the sandwich would be best with potato or with cabbage?

Man: If you're thirsty, have a drink. Try water or milk.

Boy: Why are you getting so angry at me?




as "Boudewijn Dijkstra" <boudewijn@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:op.uoe8ixqyy6p7a2@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Like Java does?
http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/third_edition/html/lexical.html

So what did Europeans think about this "incredibly stupid idea"?
Or did the Java development team forget to ask any Europeans
if they even wanted it?


Did you miss the key point? *UNICODE*. They very specifically choose a *standard* for their encodings, not something incompatible and proprietary. In particular, it's very useful to be able to write comments and strings in Unicode - many modern languages allow it. If you had suggested using Unicode, or Latin-1, or listened to the idea when it was suggested, then you'd have got far more support - it's the idea of have a proprietary half-baked encoding that is incompatible with every other tool that is "incredibly stupid".

Allowing non-ASCII identifiers is a waste of time for European programmers. It may be of interest to those with more significantly different languages and writing, such as Arabic speakers or Far Eastern programmers, but I seriously doubt it. If your tools are expected to work with other compiler tools (such as using existing linkers or archivers, linking with output of other compilers, debugging, etc.), then allowing non-ASCII identifiers will lead to chaos. Sun can get away with it for Java because they don't need such interaction, so once they allowed Unicode for strings and comments, it cost them virtually nothing to allow it for identifiers. Being Unicode, they don't need to worry about other tools such as editors.

But seriously. I gave up trying to please others. I just try to please
myself. I am putting those little extras in there for when I want to
use them. In my way of thinking, those "funny looking European
characters" are for extending English for those who speak English.
The language has adopted a very large number of foreign words
and I am regularly corrected by those who primarily speak English
on how to properly pronounce them. If I should pronounce them
properly when used in an English sentence, then why shouldn't
I spell them properly too?


So now you are developing an entirely new programming language for your own benefit, and you are inventing a new character encoding just so that you can use variable names like "naïve" ?

But let me ask you a question if you are willing to honestly
answer it. Are you angry at me because I am an American?
Do you feel that Americans cram their ideas down your
throat and you have little to say about it? I really would like
to know. Because if the answer is "Yes", I am inclined to
simpathize with you because they do that to me too.


I am *not* angry with you. I am somewhat frustrated that you have started out with a pre-conceived idea, asked opinions on your implementation of the idea, and can't seem to grasp that it was a terrible idea in the first place.

The idea of your having decided in advance what you think is best for other people without having asked them, particularly in reference to people from other countries, is certainly stereotypical American. But I try not to give much credit to stereotyping unless it is thrust upon me. I certainly won't blame you for being American!
.

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