Re: misconceptions on computer science

From: Dmitry A. Kazakov (mailbox_at_dmitry-kazakov.de)
Date: 08/13/04 

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:47:07 +0200

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:35:46 -0500, Robert C. Martin wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:42:20 +0200, "Dmitry A. Kazakov"
> <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:45:07 -0500, Robert C. Martin wrote:
>>
>>> Granted. On the other hand it still comes down to input signals and
>>> output signals.
>>
>>Yes, if inputs are limited by five senses. Are they? Nothing metaphysical,
>>consider a system having, say, internal clock. You have to be sure that
>>there is nothing in the black box except for switches (memory) and wires!
>
> Actually I was thinking of cells. (not just neurons.) There are
> inputs, and there are outputs. There are 60 trillion cells in a
> human, and somehow the inputs and outputs of those cells interact to
> form a conscious entity.

So you have to know that cells are black boxes and that brain has nothing
except cells.

> As for modeling it all with switches, I reckon that no matter how
> complex the transformations from inputs to outputs are, they can be
> represented numerically. Anything that can be represented
> mathematically can be represented with switches.

Nope, only countable things. You cannot represent things having higher
cardinality.

> If these assumptions are false then I think it means that
> consciousness cannot be represented physically. If that is true then
> there must be something more than physical (i.e. something
> meta-physical) about consciousness. If that is so then we have no
> hope of ever understanding it.

Not necessarily. You can have some physical, atomic elements which exist in
the real world, but are not finite/deterministic. Such elements cannot be
simulated using switches and wires, but they possibly could be integrated
into. For example we use hardware clock, hardware random generators in our
computers.

The question is how much of what we call intelligence might be hidden in
such elements. Or else, do such elements allow to solve a wider class of
problems than a Turing complete system can?

>>> And it can probably be modeled with switches.
>>
>>In general no. That could be equivalent to the halting problem.
>
> The halting problem is a problem with a proof. Rather like proving
> that the distribution of prime numbers is related to the natural
> logarithm. We can certainly model things (like the distribution of
> prime numbers) without being able to formally prove that the model is
> correct.

Ah but that brings my point back. Where do we know that intelligence is
Turing complete? What class of problems an intelligent system should be
able to solve? Does this class contains only decidable problems? 

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

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