Re: What IS Intelligence

From: Wouter Lievens (lievenswouter_at_snotmail.com)
Date: 12/07/03

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    Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 15:29:57 +0100

    "Programmer Dude" <Chris@Sonnack.com> schreef in bericht
    news:3F67915F.808298@Sonnack.com...
    > Dennis Clark wrote:
    >
    > > This list falls into a really big trap. We are defining
    > > intelligence and intelligent behavior by what we observe
    > > in our own species.
    >
    > True, but one question I'm posing is: ARE these qualities that
    > might be universal to (high) intelligence. Another way to put
    > it is: do we do these things because we are human, or because
    > we are intelligent?

    Excellent question, imho, and nicely put.

    > > Hell, we don't even see all of these behaviors in all of the
    > > cultures on this planet.
    >
    > You will find most of them in most cultures, though. I selected
    > them *because* we find them so frequently. As others have pointed
    > out, we even find some of these to some extent in animal "cultures".
    >
    > > Another thought that I've had, most people seem to think that
    > > intelligence is a binary switch: this species has it, this doesn't -
    > > A very humanocentric point of view,...
    >
    > I would call it plain stupid, rather than humanocentric.

    It's called anthropocentric, by the way...

    > > I feel that intelligence is a sliding scale based upon the species.
    >
    > I certainly agree with sliding scale, but based on species I donno.
    > Are you saying that, for example, some dogs are smarter than other
    > dogs?

    Yes of course, just like people are.

    Nobody has seemed to ask himself this pivotal question:

    If humans are intelligent, and dogs are not, then there must be a biological
    difference in the brain!
    Is there, or are human and dog brains made of the same stuff?
    It seems they are. So a logical conclusion must be that they have the same
    capacity, only humans have developed those much stronger.

    If humans are 'intelligent' and dogs are not, it means they must have a
    fundamentally different brain, which they don't!

    > > I've seen planning and tool use in other species (chimps, bears,
    > > racoons), forms of government in wolf packs and horse herds, and
    > > many animals seem to have the ability to communicate with each
    > > other, like dolphins.
    >
    > EXACTLY!! That's why I suspect these are NOT uniquely human traits.

    True.

    > > I posit that just about any animal is intelligent,...
    >
    > Even lemmings? (-:
    >
    > > ...just perhaps not so much as (most) humans.
    >
    > I agree completely.

    Me too.

    > > However, we are very, very limited in our ability to create
    > > a proper definition because we live in a vacuum. There are no
    > > other intelligent species that we've learned to communicate
    > > with, so we have absolutely NO frame of reference. We can
    > > continue to try, but until we have met and communicated with
    > > another intelligent species our theories are no better than
    > > the world views of the ancient Egyptians, Norse seaman or
    > > Gaelic druids. We just need more data!
    >
    > Agreed (sorta), but do you realize you've just made a binary
    > cut? I see a continuum here, also. I think we're a *little*
    > better off than the ancients (consider information theory), and
    > I think we're not quite in a vacuum, and we HAVE communicated to
    > some degree with our animal friends.

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