Re: Theodore Adorno, a prophet of data systems design

From: goose (ruse_at_webmail.co.za)
Date: 01/08/04 

Date: 8 Jan 2004 01:59:14 -0800

Corey Murtagh <emonk@slingshot.no.uce> wrote in message news:<1073522077.229487@radsrv1.tranzpeer.net>...
> Edward G. Nilges wrote:
> <snip>
> > What we need to examine here is a language which identifies an
> > unfairness in a market in isolation as if it could be identified.
>
> No, what we need is for people to respect the newsgroup's charter. Why
> don't you take this somewhere else - preferably somewhere topical.

Although many of you reading this group are probably of the opinion
that I am feeding the troll, I try very hard to snip OT stuff.

I also respond whenever I think that EGN has /some/ sort of a point
to make, and try to expose him to other views on his assertions.
(now *that* was verbosity:-)

>
> <snip>
> > Bill's infamous early speech on software "theft" (as he characterized
> > the rip offs of his Altair Basic compiler) was a founding text because
> > in recognizing his right to be paid he recognized in a Hegelian
> > fashion that he needed to respect others' property rights.
>
> Go talk to Stacker about how much Microsoft and Bill respect others'
> property rights. Or how about having a chat with Steve Jobs about
> Windows and property rights.
>
> In short the only property rights Microsoft seems to care about are its own.
>
> > He therefore paid for the first version of MS DOS, and the schnook who
> > got the money may have been "ripped off" in some long term sense: but
> > schnooks who need the money know that by accepting the money they lose
> > subsequent claims.
>
> Bill told IBM in closed conference that he had an operating system, then
> went out and bought one from some guy who had little other option but to
> sell, for far less than it was worth. If you admire this kind of
> dealing, that says a lot about your ethics.

you may not admire it, and it may skirt the ethical border, but
I have no doubt that we have all taken advantage of someone at some
tmie or another. I, for one, feel that I got a great deal on a tv set
that I purchased recently; got it at well below half the sticker price
from a major chain-store only because the manager was ill that day
and I negotiated with someone who possibly had less experience at
negotiating than I.

I still sleep at night :-).
>
> > But no responsible economist claims that Microsoft is screwing large
> > companies in any systematic way. Only technicians make this claim and
> > they do so, I fear, for reasons that are partly self-interested.
>
> Then you've never had to manage a network of Windows machines. There's
> a very good reason why people get bitter and twisted about Windows.

the large workload that comes with a small windows network is one of the
reasons many corps. are changing even as we type.

>
>
> >>>Real users make dreck work by heroically working around phenomena that
> >>>INCLUDE unpredictable behavior based on uninitalized variables (a
> >>>practice fostered by C),
> >>
> >>but forbidden by C (by the standard anyway; what in case its a
> >>trap value?) and only appears in the code of bad programmers.
> >
> > But, it appears and is not prevented as it is in VB.
>
> A compiler should (must?) issue a diagnostic about using uninitialized
> variables.

afaik, the compiler, in ansi-mode, is not /compelled/ to do that (of
course a decent compiler will, and a decent programmer will turn up
the diagnostics high enough to get a nosebleed).

for example, a volatile variable might be changed via an interrupt,
and may be thus initialised.

int *foo;

void isr {
   /* runs from a hardware interrupt */
   *foo = 0;
}

int main (void) {
   volatile int bar;
   foo = &bar;
   enable_isr();
   /* from this point onwards, the isr
      may run when interrupt occurs */
   ...
   bar++;
   ...
   return 0;
}

of course, you *have* to be certain that the interrupt occurs
before bar++. the compiler cannot tell.

> If the programmer ignores these diagnostics, he does so at
> his own peril. It's not the fault of the language if people use it in
> ways other than intended.
>

and these people who ignore diagnostics should be shot at dawn.

> > One of my issues with using C on a VMS system to develop a "C-like"
> > compiler for business rules was I did not want to in any way bound the
> > complexity of the rules. But all I had in C was the linked list
> > perhaps with a hash index. I found the repeated coding of linked lists
> > tedious and not suitable work for a gentleman.
>
> And you have the gall to accuse others of arrogance? A lot of
> programming /is/ tedious, as actual programmers know, and they accept
> this when there is no alternative. Coding lists and hashes however is a
> trivial example, and if you find this beneath you then I fear you've
> provided yet more proof that you are not a programmer.
>
> >>but all my appliances *work*. they dont crash, they dont require
> >>rebooting; they just work.
> >
> > Until they don't for some strange reason. And have you set the time on
> > your VCR?
>
> Aww, do you have flashing zeroes on your VCR eddie? Can't quite master
> simple things like that, huh?

<ahem> I have to admit to being completely clueless to mastering simple
things like VCR and microwave ovens. I suspect that the user
interface on these things need some work.

>
> >>now you get to work, and the mailserver goes away for 2 hours. some
> >>of us wont even notice! the fileserver has to go down for 1 hour
> >>routine maintenance? well, we just copy the files over to the local
> >>hard disk. your browser crashes while surfing? just restart it.
> >
> > Interesting point, though. The stuff at home seems to work whereas the
> > stuff at work crashes. My thesis is because social relations are
> > dysfunctional as compared with individual lifestyle, at least for
> > many.
>
> How this reflects on the difference in bug rates between domestic and
> commercial situations is, quite frankly, beyond me. There appears to be
> no causal link. Sounds to me like sheer anthropomorphism.

or sheer philosophy? either way, it was off-topic.

<snipped>

I try very hard to see the EGN point of view, but I suspect that
I am not the only one finding comprehension of his sentences
exhausting.

goose,
   hand

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Future for VC++ Programmers
    ... bluescreening the system (crash X windows). ... Especially the kind who speak their native language as a second ... I don't want an environment in which the compiler, the linker, and the debugger will, at ...
    (microsoft.public.vc.mfc)
  • Re: Difference between VC++ and UNIX
    ... It uses whatever compiler you have, in whatever language you like. ... like edit Lisp or integrate 3rd party compilers into Visual Studio. ... Windows, HP-UX, and Linux. ...
    (comp.programming)
  • Re: Visual C++ wont autcomplete?
    ... slow down the compiler). ... All you're really saying is that many existing Windows applications don't ... the full power of the C++ language ... ... Eclipse is much more than just an editor ... ...
    (microsoft.public.vc.mfc)
  • Re: assembler worth learning?
    ... PPC MAC but with a windows specific compiler, ... against it but that works between any language, ... NO runtime then you can use MASM libraries but with this much messing ...
    (alt.lang.asm)
  • Re: "STL from the Ground Up"
    ... high-level intermediate language than can interoperate with many other ... If your language lacks expressive features then you cannot write code ... memory management in comparison. ... Mostly because type errors mean that the programmer and compiler disagree ...
    (comp.programming)