Re: A REQUEST concerning Nilgewater.

From: Malcolm (malcolm_at_55bank.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: 02/08/04 

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 22:51:04 -0000

"Edward G. Nilges" <spinoza1111@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> The problem here is that one poster, Mr. Richard Heathfield, either
> has an obsessive-compulsive personality disorder or is a police agent,
> because he consistently "trolls the troll".
>
Both are highly unlikely. Richard doesn't believe that politics have a place
in the newsgroup, which is why he is irritated by your posts.
>
> I have submitted on-topic material. In December 2000 I initiated a
> popular thread with a review of Steve McConnell's book After the
> Gold Rush, which was also accepted by Amazon moderators.
>
> Richard Heathfield trolled this with a deliberate misinterpretation of
> the ng charter including the false claim that the ng is about
> programming and not programmers.
>
The problem is that threads can be marginally topical. Say I am writing a
biography of Ada Lovelace. A thread on Ada Lovelace would be marginally
topical, and a single one could quite probably be quite popular. However if
I insisted on filling up the ng with nothing but threads on Ada Lovelace,
with digressions into Victorian feminism, the role of the aristocracy, and
the social status of engineering, and what dress Ada wore for her wedding,
then people would begin to object that this is comp.programming, not a
biographical group.

It is the same situation with politics and programming. It is at best
marginally topical, which means that it is only acceptable in small
quantities. However politics is worse than Ada Lovelace, in that many people
have very strongly held views about it. For instance in a recent post you
put in a reference to "Roe v Wade". Now I used to do "pavement counselling",
so naturally I would love to reply to your point, but I can't, because that
belongs on alt.abortion.
>
> I subsequently submitted code to back up my claim that part of bad
> corporate data quality is caused by the use of an inferior language,
> C.
>
This is of course totally legitmate. You can't expect everyone to agree, but
no-one should dispute that you have the right to claim that use of C rather
than more modern langauges damages productivity.
>
> I am also concerned how political quietism disempowers real
> programmers. I have always attempted to be polite and to move
> discussions forward, typically by relating outside themes BACK to
> programming.
>
As I said, the problem is that your posts are full of passing references to
contentious subjects, like abortion, which aren't topical here.
>
> I'm sad to say this because when I entered the programming business >
in1971 I was attracted to it because programmers at that date didn't
> engage in this sort of behavior.
>
The T-shirt to suit ratio has gone the wrong way. 1971 was shortly after the
sixites, whilst now we're still living in 2004.
>
> Why don't you post, regularly, something like "Edward G. Nilges
> does not agree with many of us here. We respect his right to post.
> However, newbies should realize that he is willing to defend his
> views with a great deal of vigor, and it is a waste of time to try to get
> him to change on SOME issues."
>
The mark of a really great thinker is that he is prepared to chnage his
views as a result of debate.
>
> "He also makes technical errors, as do we all. But since his focus is
> generally on social and political topics, he feels that the point has
> been made even if there's been an error. He'll typically admit he's
> wrong but then whack you over the head with another argument."
>
Everyone makes technical errors. However the thread sparked by your use of
strlen() in the test condtion of a C for loop was rather lengthy.
>
> I'm serious. I don't like C, and I also feel that part of the reason
> so many systems don't work well is because programmers are
> apolitical and therefore unable to get "the big picture". I'm not going to
> change these views based on what I've seen here.
>
This is one technical view, and one political view. C has deficiencies, and
you are not the only programmer who doesn't like it.
As for politics, it may be true that certain political views dispose people
to being bad programmers. However in this sort of post you have to be very
careful not to drift off-topic, and also to limit the volume. The core of
the newsgroup is discussion of algorithms, then discussion of languages and
methodolgies, and then some political or sociological element may be of
relevance to the methodolgies. However only as it realtes to programming,
not for itself.
>
> But in order to desist posting, I need to see Richard stop his
> trolling which lies, IMO, at the bottom of the problem.
>
Trolling is posting which is calculated to disrupt the smooth functioning of
the ng. Richard is trying to defend topicality, and since he doesn't share
your political views, trying to get rid of them too, as is only natural.
Since your opinions are politically controversial, you should be very
careful not to leave yourself open to such tactics, for instance by making
an excessive number of political posts that are only tangentially related to
programming.

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