Re: Vector is to Point as ____ is to Angle?
- From: "BGB / cr88192" <cr88192@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 23:15:18 -0700
"Daniel Pitts" <newsgroup.spamfilter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
BGB / cr88192 wrote:
"Daniel Pitts" <newsgroup.spamfilter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote inThe reason is semantics. Why distinguish a complex number from a 2d
This is almost an English question, rather than a programming question,
because I'm searching for the suitable name of a class.
I'm creating some value types for a simulation that I'm working on.
In the past, I've used a vector as a representation of a point, but I've
realized that they have subtle differences in properties. A vector
represents a delta, or a change, where a Point represents a fixed
beyond this, personally I don't really see the point of distinguishing
I once asked a teacher this, as he was making the distinction, and he
went on and never really gave a solid answer. "it is because it is I
vector? You can certainly create a single class which will handle both
cases (there is even some overlap). But you don't want your API clients
passing in a vector when you expected a complex number.
except that a complex has different operations, and a significantly
different meaning, than a 2D vector...
this is not really the case with vectors vs points, since this is, IMO, more
of a "splitting hairs" distinction...
A point *has* a location. A vector has a magnitude and direction. Although
a point is a location, as contrasted from a vector relative to the
both points and vectors are representable in the same coordinate spaces,
the semantics of those representations are very different.
what is a point? (x, y)
what is a vector? <x, y>
magnitude and direction can be calculated from a vector, but they are not,
in effect, the vector (as I see it).
IMO, this would be similar to claiming that <p, q, r> (in spherical coords)
are also a vector, since they also be said to have direction and magnitude,
but spherical coords are a different entity from a vector (although, they
are convertible, which was a big part of my trick of shoving a quat into the
form of 3 angles...).
Not in the math, but in the meaning.
I don't know, as far as the math or behavior goes there is not a whole
lot of difference.
what is "meaning" apart from structure and behavior?...
If I'd wanted to make an exclusive list, it wouldn't have included "Among
From this realization, I've determined:
1. A vector can be multiplied or divided by a scalar; A point can not.
2. A vector has a unit value; A points does not.
3. Two vectors can be added or subtracted. Two points can be only
subtracted (which results in a vector)
4. A vector can be added to and subtracted from a point, resulting in
Among other things.
there are lots of operations which apply...
there are, infact, more operations than one may care to think about
(unlike, say, real numbers, vectors would seem to be a lot more "open
ended" in these regards).
your example list doesn't even include dot and cross product, FWIW, ...
ok, only that these are fairly basic operations...
"among other things" would presumably be more in reference to things like
the wedge product, line/plane intersections, projection, ...
True, but the vectors have to be implemented some how, and choosing
So, for my implementation, vectors are implemented in terms of a
rectangular coordinate and points are implemented in terms of a vector.
The vector value of a point is the delta from the origin.
personally I see vectors as being in a rectangular coordinate system as
more a property of the coordinate space than of the vectors,
rectangular coordinates simplify a lot of the common operations (addition,
dot product, etc...)
yep, so the operations have a "sane" meaning regardless of space...
then one doesn't have to deal with the mental arbitrarities, like for
example that a vector in a torroidial space can be both a straight line and
a helix at the same time. from one point of view, we have a straight line,
and from another, a helix...
nevermind that with a slight bit of trickery, one can pass off a toroid as a
sphere, and very possibly no one will notice...
no one need figure out that this square wrapping RPG-style world map
couldn't possibly be on a sphere...
since the operations/... remain themselves mostly unchanged even thoughTechnically, you end up with an object which is not a vector, I forget the
the "space" is different (although I guess one could argue that a cross
product in a right-hand space is different from a left-hand space,
depending on ones' interpretations and implementation).
name of it, but it is basically a double-sided vector. a union of both
left and right handed. Much like square root radicals, its convention
from which we choose ignore one of the results.
Kind of diverged there from the topic :-) Anyway, I'm dealing with 2d
the problem though with the cross-product, is that its behavior in a
left-hand space would be indeterminate apart from defining (either
implicitly or explicitly) a plane along which the space is mirrored (I
would have to verify, but it seems intuitively that there would be
multiple possible left-hand cross-products WRT a given right-hand cross
product depending on the spatial projection).
space, so cross-product is not a concern.
yes, ok, reasonable enough...
Now, I have also figured out that there is the same difference between
an "Angle" and a "____", but I don't know what to call "____" (and I'm
not sure which one is the vector analogue vs the point analogue).
this is only true if the angle is assumed to be an absolute rotation.
more so, you don't state if you are talking here about 2D or 3D, where
rotation in 3D is a different beast from 2D (and in turn, 4D is a
different beast from 3D, challenging what one may think of
Ah, I did forget to mention I was working in a 2d space.
well, this does simplify a few things, FWIW...
Off topic again are ya? ;-)
one can instead think that an angle is essentially like a very limited
delta rotation, rather than an absolute rotation (though, an angle can
fill this role in 2D).
granted, in 3D, people often end up using euler angles (ZXZ and ZXY being
common, or informally, as "yaw, pitch, roll"), although, personally, I
have found that I rather dislike euler angles much beyond the "simple"
case, and instead prefer nearly any other option.
one idea I had made use of recently was to embed an axis-angle into the
form of 3 angles (sort of like euler angles), but which allows allows a
1:1 conversion between this and unit quaternions. more so, in the simple
case, it can identity map to a yaw angle.
Quat <-> Axis-Angle, and Axis-Angle <-> 3Rot, where 3Rot encodes the axis
in the pitch and roll fields, and the angle in yaw (pitch=roll=0 then
corresponds to the Z axis, allowing for ordinary rotation in this case).
the main reason to do something like this was to "retrofit"
quaternion-based rotations onto a mass of code designed for the use of
euler angles (in particular, the Quake2 engine, where a flag indicates
which system is in use, but I had by mistake called this flag ZXZ, later
realizing that this system was not, in fact, ZXZ...).
well, all this is plenty relevant for 3D, and it had been said prior that
the topic was not 3D...
In 2d spaces, absolute angles are relative (by convention) to the positive
I'm thinking that maybe angles are the fixed (point analague) value. The
vector analogue, eg the delta, might be called "rotation", but I'm not
sure. An angle would be implemented in terms of a "rotation" from some
determined origin (east for example), and rotation will be defined as a
scalar value (probably using radian units).
Does this all make sense, or am I too sleep deprived :-)
this seems counter-intuitive...
but, normally angles are not relative to some particular direction, but
along some particular axis (such as Z). they can also be regarded as a
relation between 2 coordinate systems along said axis, where usually an
angle of '0' would mean a 1:1 mapping between these systems.
x axis. Although, this is something which I will be abstracting away, so
the convention need not apply. A user can start with axial unit vector,
and then rotate clockwise or counter-clockwise by whatever amount.
ok, or in a 2D space, one could just as easily assert that the angle is
along an invisible axis "upwards".
I think this is sort of like how quats work in 3D:
the axis exists in 3D, but the rotation itself falls outside 3D space.
any further and one finds themselves rotating along planes...
working backwards, we could assert, once again, that infact the 2D space is
rotating (absent reference to a magic Z axis).
which way is "east" or "forwards" is then a secondary issue, although,You really like going off on tangents, don't you :-) I actually don't
normally the orientation of: X=right, Y=forwards, Z=up is common.
this is also apparently a difference between Quake1 and Quake2, where in
Quake1 (and in the non-renderer code in Quake2), this is followed, but
within the renderer Y=right and -X=forwards...
nevermind that Q2 can't keep it consistent which way angles go (leading
to frequent angle flipping in the renderer), or even whether clockwise or
counter-clockwise is the front-facing vertex order (so, the character
models use CCW vertex ordering and the BSP models use CW ordering, ...).
all this stuff made it a pain to add on new features (mostly for my own
learning experience), such as real-time stencil lighting and shadows
(as-in Doom3), which required lots of hacking and fiddling (and still
looks not very good as the Quake2 maps are designed for radiosity, and
hence are not well lit and have low-saturation textures, whereas the
Quake1 maps look much better, but tend to be bright and over-saturated
with Quake2's lightmapping...).
similar goes for rigid body physics, which turned out disappointingly
mind, its always interesting to me to hear more about these kinds of
things, even if they aren't relevant to the discussion at hand
topic is a terribly narrow track...
That's not very different from using classes, just the syntax changes
So, what should my class names be? I'm thinking of calling them Vector,
Point, Rotation, Angle, but Rotation seems to not quit fit. FixedAngle
vs RelativeAngle is a bit too wordy, and there is probably a more
concise and exact concept that I'm missing.
I have never actually really done any of this via classes.
I have older code, which mostly used float pointers and functions.
some of my newer code uses a vector system based on top of compiler SIMD
intrinsics, which uses an API designed partly based on GLSL.
vec3 u, v, w;
u=vec3(1, 0, 0);
v=vec3(0, 1, 0);
it includes these types:
vec2, vec3, vec4, quat
mat3/mat4 have been partly implemented, but were not really finished (not as
much motivation since matrices don't map nicely to SIMD intrinsics, unlike,
say, vectors or quats...).
note that these types were not wrapped in structs, mostly as I was figuring
that the compiler was a bit stupid (the struct wrapper might cause it to
start copying it around via memory plain operations rather than SIMD
yes, MSVC is not very smart, it sees a struct and automatically uses "rep
movsb" to copy it and stuff like "movups xmm0, [rax+0]" to access it...
(even then, struct-wrapped SIMD would be likely to still be faster than
float arrays and scalar operations...).
the cost though is that, since they are not wrapped, just typedef'ed, I
can't go and add overloaded operators for them, which is kind of lame.
but, thus far, the only real uses this has seen have been in
micro-optimizing things, since the float-arrays strategy has a lot more
weight (since it is a lot more commonly used in my codebase).
I then ended up adding operations like vec3vf() and vfvec3() to allow quick
conversion between them.
struct-wrapped floats are likely to be slowest, as I have seen how much a
trivial detail, such as a few unecessary vector copies, can impact
performance in some cases (though, usually in the innards of a rendering
loop, where one may also end up trying to skimp on things like 'sqrt' as
Daniel Pitts' Tech Blog: <http://virtualinfinity.net/wordpress/>
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