Re: Another set with cardinality |Z|

From: Tim Peters (tim.one_at_comcast.net)
Date: 10/01/04

  • Next message: Tim Peters: "Re: Zenkin's paper on Cantor"
    Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 00:25:07 -0400
    
    

    [Eray Ozkural]
    ...
    > In this (undirected) tree every vertex except the root vertex is
    > incident with exactly three edges. Or if we view it as a directed tree,
    > exactly one incoming edge, and two outgoing edges. Am I right?

    Sure.

    > So, this tree has (by definition)
    > |V| = |E| = Aleph-0
    > |paths| = c

    Those are all true, but none really by definition. That the set of vertices
    is countable requires proof (which has been given: it's a countable union
    of finite sets). Similarly for the other two.

    > While I appreciate this, I cannot prove that there is no bijection
    > between the power of a level set I defined (namely all the levels
    > excluding the root, cardinality Aleph-0) and the vertex set by an
    > induction on the depth of the tree. How to accomplish that? It seemed
    > so easy!

    Sorry, I don't remember your "level sets" from before, and can't tell what
    they are from that description. Is it something like "in a finite
    'complete' binary tree with n levels below the root, there are 2^n paths and
    2^n+1 vertices, 'therefore' if there are aleph_0 levels below the root there
    must be 2^aleph_0 paths and 2^aleph_0+1 == 2^aleph_0 vertices"?

    If so, then all I can say is that's the kind of result you get by making
    stuff up instead of studying the basics and *then* proving things <wink>.
    The same kind of "intuitive" symbol-pushing could just as well conclude that
    1 = 0 by subtracting 2^aleph_0 from both sides of 2^aleph_0+1 = 2^aleph_0.

    > ...
    > Now, another question. How can I prove this fact that there are more
    > paths than vertices in this infinite tree? Can I prove it without
    > invoking Cantor's theorems?

    Very easily, but you won't like it <wink>. Suppose there were a bijection
    between the set of vertices and the set of paths. Since the set of vertices
    is countable, that bijection can be listed:

    vertex path
    ------ ----
    v1 left, left, right, left, right, right, left, right, ...
    v2 left, left, left, left, left, left, right, left, left, ...
    ...
    v_i p_i_1, p_i_2, p_i_3, ...
    ...

    Now construct a path p with p_i = left if p_i_i = right, or p_i = right if
    p_i_i = left, for all i >= 1. That path, by construction, is not in the
    listing. Therefore the claimed bijection isn't one.

    Diagonal methods are used so often not because they're the only methods, but
    because they're so often the simplest methods; indeed they're often
    darned-near obvious methods. Note that the proof above doesn't have
    anything to do with the vertices in your tree beyond that they're countable.
    It really shows that there's no bijection between the set of paths and any
    countable set.

    BTW, an infinite path in the tree is a mapping from the naturals to the set
    {left, right}. By the definition of cardinal exponentiation, there are

        |{left, right}|^|N|

    which is

        2^aleph_0

    such mappings. You can also view a path as the characteristic function for
    a subset of naturals, via saying, e.g., that p_i = left means i is in the
    subset, and p_i = right means i is not in the subset. So the set of paths
    is also equinumerous with the powerset of the naturals.

    The number of vertices is just 1 + 2 + 4 + ... = aleph_0.

    Bottom line: there are more paths than vertices because it's provably so.
    The proofs don't care whether intuition approves.

    BTW2, William Zwicker found another elementary way of showing that the
    powerset of N is bigger than N, but it's not as simple as Cantor's diagonal
    proof (I doubt anything could be simpler than that!). Suppose there is a
    bijection B: N -> P(N). So B(i) is the subset of naturals identified with
    i.

    A "Zwicker path" starts by picking a (any) integer i. Then it's extended by
    this rule: look at the last integer j on the path so far. If B(j) is the
    empty set, the path ends. If B(j) is not the empty set, add any element of
    B(j) to the path, and continue.

    Call an integer i "normal" if all Zwicker paths starting with i are finite.

    For example, if B(0) = {} and B(1) = {0) and B(2) = {1, 2}, then

       - 0 is normal. The only Zwicker path starting with 0 is [0].

       - 1 is normal. The only Zwicker path starting with 1 is [1, 0].

       - 2 is not normal. While there is a finite Zwicker path starting
         with 2, there's also an infinite Zwicker path starting with 2:
         [2, 2, 2, ...].

    Now let Z be the set of normal integers. Is Z in the range of B? Nope!
    It's a very clever construction, and seems to have nothing in common with
    Cantor's.

    The "yadda yadda" part: Assume Z is in the range of B. Then Z = B(i) for
    some i. Is i normal? If Z is the empty set, yes, because then [i] is the
    only Zwicker path starting with i. If Z is not empty, then a Zwicker path
    starting with i has as its second element j an element of B(i) = Z, and j is
    normal by the definition of Z. So all Zwicker paths starting with j are
    finite, so all Zwicker paths starting with [i, j, ...] are also finite. So
    i is normal whether Z is empty or not. But if i is normal, then i is an
    element of B(i), so that [i, i, i, ...] is an infinite Zwicker path starting
    with i: i is *not* normal.

    So Z is not in the range of B, so the claimed bijection doesn't exist.

    BTW3, if you have ontological misgivings about infinities, of course
    studying infinite trees isn't going to relieve them.

    > IOW, how do I show that this is one of the things that gets abused.

    What is it about the proof(s) above that rankles you?

    > One's intuition does not readily accept that the paths extend beyond
    > the set of vertices, by _more_ steps than there are vertices.

    A single path contains a countable number of vertices -- no path is "longer"
    than the set of vertices. It's the set of all paths that's larger than the
    set of vertices.

    But get uncomfortable at a more fundamental level: an infinite set can be
    bijectively mapped to a proper subset of itself. Doesn't that abuse your
    intuition to the screaming point? "One's intuition does not readily accept
    that a set is bigger than itself" either, right? That's the kind of
    statement my real-world-of-eggs-and-metronomes intuition makes about that
    *fundamental* property of infinite sets. If you want a mathematics that
    doesn't abuse your intuition, make your stand there, where it starts. All
    the rest is elaboration. If you swallow the first infinite bite, all the
    rest (including "trees" where a vertex can have ancestors but no parent)
    follows. I think delightfully so, but you're welcome to find it appallingly
    so.


  • Next message: Tim Peters: "Re: Zenkin's paper on Cantor"

    Relevant Pages

    • Re: Another set with cardinality |Z|
      ... Or if we view it as a directed tree, ... Suppose there were a bijection ... an infinite path in the tree is a mapping from the naturals to the set ... A "Zwicker path" starts by picking a integer i. ...
      (sci.math)
    • Re: Cantor and the binary tree
      ... I consider an infinite tree. ... If you mean that there is a bijection between paths and reals, ... Assume a binary tree in which each node is a parent and has a left-child ...
      (sci.math)
    • Re: infinity
      ... > I'd like to see this alleged bijection between *N and Pbefore I ... Consider the infinite binary tree. ... In the second tree, each path, each bit string, ...
      (sci.math)
    • Re: Orlow cardinality question
      ... >> the infinite set of natural numbers and the sets they each define. ... >>> infinite in a a maximal binary tree. ... > bijected with the naturals. ... I never said the bijection doesn't exist. ...
      (sci.math)
    • Re: infinity
      ... >>> that bijection comes first. ... >>> If either the number of characters in the alphabet or the string ... >> If you either allow an infinite alphabet or infinite strings? ... >>> One maximal binary tree works for both. ...
      (sci.math)