Re: What IS Intelligence

From: Wouter Lievens (lievenswouter_at_snotmail.com)
Date: 12/07/03

  • Next message: William Brogden: "Re: tomcat cannot refresh my webapps" 
    Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 15:29:57 +0100

    "Programmer Dude" <Chris@Sonnack.com> schreef in bericht
    news:3F67915F.808298@Sonnack.com...
    > Dennis Clark wrote:
    >
    > > This list falls into a really big trap. We are defining
    > > intelligence and intelligent behavior by what we observe
    > > in our own species.
    >
    > True, but one question I'm posing is: ARE these qualities that
    > might be universal to (high) intelligence. Another way to put
    > it is: do we do these things because we are human, or because
    > we are intelligent?

    Excellent question, imho, and nicely put.

    > > Hell, we don't even see all of these behaviors in all of the
    > > cultures on this planet.
    >
    > You will find most of them in most cultures, though. I selected
    > them *because* we find them so frequently. As others have pointed
    > out, we even find some of these to some extent in animal "cultures".
    >
    > > Another thought that I've had, most people seem to think that
    > > intelligence is a binary switch: this species has it, this doesn't -
    > > A very humanocentric point of view,...
    >
    > I would call it plain stupid, rather than humanocentric.

    It's called anthropocentric, by the way...

    > > I feel that intelligence is a sliding scale based upon the species.
    >
    > I certainly agree with sliding scale, but based on species I donno.
    > Are you saying that, for example, some dogs are smarter than other
    > dogs?

    Yes of course, just like people are.

    Nobody has seemed to ask himself this pivotal question:

    If humans are intelligent, and dogs are not, then there must be a biological
    difference in the brain!
    Is there, or are human and dog brains made of the same stuff?
    It seems they are. So a logical conclusion must be that they have the same
    capacity, only humans have developed those much stronger.

    If humans are 'intelligent' and dogs are not, it means they must have a
    fundamentally different brain, which they don't!

    > > I've seen planning and tool use in other species (chimps, bears,
    > > racoons), forms of government in wolf packs and horse herds, and
    > > many animals seem to have the ability to communicate with each
    > > other, like dolphins.
    >
    > EXACTLY!! That's why I suspect these are NOT uniquely human traits.

    True.

    > > I posit that just about any animal is intelligent,...
    >
    > Even lemmings? (-:
    >
    > > ...just perhaps not so much as (most) humans.
    >
    > I agree completely.

    Me too.

    > > However, we are very, very limited in our ability to create
    > > a proper definition because we live in a vacuum. There are no
    > > other intelligent species that we've learned to communicate
    > > with, so we have absolutely NO frame of reference. We can
    > > continue to try, but until we have met and communicated with
    > > another intelligent species our theories are no better than
    > > the world views of the ancient Egyptians, Norse seaman or
    > > Gaelic druids. We just need more data!
    >
    > Agreed (sorta), but do you realize you've just made a binary
    > cut? I see a continuum here, also. I think we're a *little*
    > better off than the ancients (consider information theory), and
    > I think we're not quite in a vacuum, and we HAVE communicated to
    > some degree with our animal friends.

  • Next message: William Brogden: "Re: tomcat cannot refresh my webapps"

    Relevant Pages

    • Re: What IS Intelligence
      ... We are defining ... > Are you saying that, for example, some dogs are smarter than other ... >> many animals seem to have the ability to communicate with each ... >> other intelligent species that we've learned to communicate ...
      (comp.programming)
    • Re: Housebreaking
      ... will never train their humans and humans will never train their ... dogs. ... to communicate something to me, I will do my very best to try to ...
      (rec.pets.dogs.behavior)
    • Re: Lucky successfully disintacted
      ... used to dealing with, dogs cannot verbalize, so they can't tell you ... high threshold for pain. ... No, Helene could not come to the dog show, although I invited her. ... Maybe I do have a problem in how I communicate, ...
      (rec.pets.dogs.behavior)
    • Re: Dog sounds
      ... > i also just do *not* understand dogs barking at their human ... in my experience, dogs don't bark to ... > communicate with each other as much as they do to communicate ...
      (rec.pets.dogs.behavior)