Re: Java beginners and GUIs (was Re: simple sound problem)

From: Larry Coon (lmcoon_at_nospam_cox.net)
Date: 01/27/04 

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 21:25:55 -0800

Chris Smith wrote:

> Ah, but *that* is a definite point of contention. Specifically, if you
> take a look at my recent response summarizing one of the problems in
> Michael's code, I think you'll see that in this case, many of the
> problems were directly related to difficulties in the applet framework
> (i.e., GUI stuff) that Michael was trying to use. Specifically, he was
> using a constructor for initialization, in a way that would make perfect
> sense except for the additional complexities involved in the convoluted
> setup process for an applet.
>
> I happen to be with Andrew on the fundamental point here: from the
> perspective of learning and understanding Java, it's best to begin as
> much as possible in isolation from complex framework code.

This might sound surprising after reading my earlier responses,
but I agree. When I wrote that I didn't see a reason why it
was a bad idea, what I meant was that I didn't see Andrew provide
one, which was ironic given that it was one of the first things
he mentioned in his criticism. However, upon re-reading what I
wrote I can see that it can be interpreted as saying I can't
think of a reason why it's a bad idea. (Your valid justification
snipped...)

> Frankly, I doubt that even Dietel and Dietel, or other authors who jump
> into the GUI/applet world right away would disagree that it's an
> inferior approach from a learning standpoint. I'd hazard a guess that
> the reason they chose that approach is more motivational and even sales-
> oriented than because they feel the approach produces better
> programmers.

I've never talked to them about it, so I don't know the basis
for that decision, nor whether pedagogical factors were the only
ones considered in their approach. What I -do- know is that
their book -does- structure the material in that way (and
probably other books, I'm sure), and that their book -is- used
as required text for college Java courses (including the
University where I teach, although I don't teach Java so I can't
comment on the effectiveness of the approach). So my point
continues to be that some people don't have direct control over
the order in which such material is presented to them (although
Andrew and I apparently disagree about what constitutes "direct
control"). That was my only point, and I'm certainly not
married to any single pedagogy for teaching Java.

> Andrew may be having a bad day, but even a student in a class that is
> following a specific approach can benefit from being advised to start
> from the beginning. Most successful students in programming learn about
> the subject from multiple sources. I don't think anyone should be
> encouraged to think of themselves as incapable of learning something if
> it isn't contained in a certain section of a book.

I agree 100%, but I'll also respectfully suggest that it's
orthogonal to my point.

> When this advice is given it's generally because something *extremely*
> important and fundamental is being missed... something that really
> should have come up by now regardless of the techniques involved in a
> class or study environment. If Michael had not posted with methods
> called "Play()" and "Stop()" -- a sign of any of plain messiness, a
> misunderstanding about Java being case sensitive, or a failure to even
> check the part of the book that says that applets have methods called
> start() and stop() (or perhaps all of the above) -- then I doubt that
> section of Andrew's response would have appeared.

Absolutely -- with the caveat that I wouldn't make blanket
assumptions about pedagogy based on the failings of one
student. I'm not saying YOU were doing that, but I -did-
see responses which appeared to make that (unjustified)
leap. Of course, a valid response to me would be that it's
based on not just this one case, but on many similar examples.
But that just gets me back to my point -- some people don't
get to choose the order in which things are presented.

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